Are the jews the real "übermenchen"?

[lionheart1189]

Jews have higher IQs than any other ethnic group or race. Of course, this doesn't surprise me. I mean, when your people have been hounded and torn for 2500+ years, then generally, only the smartest procreate.

Or...as Bob Dylan says: "Everyone who's enslaved him is gone: the Egyptians, the Romans...the Great Babylon.

Israel still exists.

Sam

To be fair to those other nations they were all around (height of power) for at least a thousand years each, Israel has only been there for 50 years or so

[Galaxian]

According to wikipedia there's an estimated 13-14 million jews in this world. Divided by 6 billion, that's about 0.002% of the world's population. Of those 0.002% we've got Albert Einstein, Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, Isaac Asimov, Sigmund Freud, Carl Sagan, Noam Chomsky, Steven Pinker, Richard Feynman, Stephen J. Gould, Jonas Salk, Baruch Spinoza etc etc. The list could go on for quite a while. It's a pretty impressive list for a people being considered "untermenshen".
I've been thinking about it before, but I've never brought it up. The jews must be far more prominent in many fields than any other ethnicity. What should one make out of it? Have they got better genes than most of us? Is it due to the way they were treated by the europeans?
I'm a Swedish caucasian myself though, so there's nothing personal in my question, it just strikes me as odd. All the time I see names like Gold*, Silver*, Stein* and whatever their names are. Even in Sweden one of the most respected families are jewish, the Bonnier-family.

Hi Dhamma! Welcome to the forum.
As Martin Luther King jnr said; "It is the content of a person's character that we should examine, not the color of his skin (etc)." (words to that effect)
Having said that; I disagree with your list & the Wikipedia estimate:
There is genetic evidence that almost 10% of Asian men are descended from Ghengis Khan:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article669552.ece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_common_ancestor
Now, if it became fashionable for lots of people to say that in public & take it seriously, we'd wonder at how one man could be so promiscuous.
But it is quite easy: just as the family tree branches into the future, so it also branches into the past. Hence one of the many side twigs of your or my ancestry quite possibly was Ghengis Khan, or from Jehovah & Mary (Jewish parents of Jesus Christ). So I could go on the radio, or someone could claim on my behalf that I am a Jew, or you are a Jew, or Adolf Hitler was a Jew. Because it is very likely that somewhere in our past, some side twig of our ancestors was Jewish!
So, I am afraid I don't put much truck into such claims, even when they are backed up by such obviously 'Jewish' names as: Galaxian, Dhamma, Luther KIng, & Stalin (Jewish names? Says who???)
There is some evidence that many people with a small fraction of some ancestry or other claim the minority ancestry for reasons best known to themselves. For example in Australia you'll see many 'Aborigines' who look more Nordic than you. Why? because their great grandmother was an Aborigine & they 'claim' that is their 'race' or 'heritage', even though only just ¹/₈th or less of their genetic makeup is authentic Australian Aboriginal.
Another line of evidence that the whole thing is silly is this. We KNOW that the Jewish people were a Semitic people. Their own historians support that fact. The Semitic race includes the Arabs who shared many creation stories & language similarities with the Jews. So far so good.
So why is it that virtually none of the names you selected have Semitic features? They certainly don't look like Arabs. They definitely look very Caucasian, So your question: "Is it due to the way they were treated by the europeans?" is baseless, because the people you gave us ARE EUROPEANS, or most of their genes are.
So the thread title should really be "Are the Europeans the real "übermenchen"?"---Naaa.
Uber, Unter, Inter, Hinter. Who gives a rat's arse. Judge people by their character & humane qualities.

[campermon]

Uber, Unter, Inter, Hinter. Who gives a rat's arse. Judge people by their character & humane qualities.

[lionheart1189]

I'm not saying it the way they claim to be god's chosen people, but that they're prominent in so many areas.

According to wikipedia there's an estimated 13-14 million jews in this world. Divided by 6 billion, that's about 0.002% of the world's population. Of those 0.002% we've got Albert Einstein, Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, Isaac Asimov, Sigmund Freud, Carl Sagan, Noam Chomsky, Steven Pinker, Richard Feynman, Stephen J. Gould, Jonas Salk, Baruch Spinoza etc etc. The list could go on for quite a while. It's a pretty impressive list for a people being considered "untermenshen".

I've been thinking about it before, but I've never brought it up. The jews must be far more prominent in many fields than any other ethnicity. What should one make out of it? Have they got better genes than most of us? Is it due to the way they were treated by the europeans?

I'm a Swedish caucasian myself though, so there's nothing personal in my question, it just strikes me as odd. All the time I see names like Gold*, Silver*, Stein* and whatever their names are. Even in Sweden one of the most respected families are jewish, the Bonnier-family.

Well considering the amount of people who have tried and are still trying to eradicate them, I figure there must be a reason for it. Im sure Hitler wouldnt agree they were übermenchen though.

[Dhamma]

Could it be that they've been training their brains with all the maths they've been doing, so that their genes became "better"? I doubt evolution is that fast though,

Hmm.. interesting take I had on evolution a year ago Lamarckian?

I'm still baffled why Jews are so much more intelligent than any other ethnicity. According to Wikipedia, Isaac Asimov felt only two people were more intelligent than him, Carl Sagan and Marvin Minsky. All three jews.

[I'm With Stupid]

I think there is a culture of success and academic achievement as others have said. But once you have that, it becomes self-fulfilling. Your kids then end up with all of the benefits of your success.

[Neil C]

Are the jews the real "übermenchen"?

No

[Randy Ping]

I think there is a culture of success and academic achievement as others have said. But once you have that, it becomes self-fulfilling. Your kids then end up with all of the benefits of your success.

Indeed.

[Teuton]

The German word is correctly spelled "Übermensch", plural "Übermenschen".

[Athorist]

Oh but Jews can't be more intelligent as long as they remain theistic.

[Egbert]

I'm not saying it the way they claim to be god's chosen people, but that they're prominent in so many areas.

According to wikipedia there's an estimated 13-14 million jews in this world. Divided by 6 billion, that's about 0.002% of the world's population. Of those 0.002% we've got Albert Einstein, Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, Isaac Asimov, Sigmund Freud, Carl Sagan, Noam Chomsky, Steven Pinker, Richard Feynman, Stephen J. Gould, Jonas Salk, Baruch Spinoza etc etc. The list could go on for quite a while. It's a pretty impressive list for a people being considered "untermenshen".

Well, if you're going to claim the Einsteins, the Asimovs, the Bernsteins, as one of "our gang", I'm afraid that you can't conveniently forget about the Bernie Madofs, or the Leonard Rosenberg, just like you'll NEVER let the Germans forget about their Hitler.

[Or Bar]

I agree that it's a lot more "culture" than "genes". The only way you can prove one way or the other is if you have kids of different background born to the same culture with a large sample enough to make conclusions...and that's never gonna happen.

-Dory

[Dhamma]

I don't know, but I have a hard time believing a good environment can create Einstein. I think he, and others, for one or another reason had great genes. Their environments obviously affected them, I just doubt anywhere near how much their genes affected their intellect. Einstein loathed the school system, and is known for not excelling in school. I think that says a great deal about his not so good environment.

[Or Bar]

I don't know, but I have a hard time believing a good environment can create Einstein. I think he, and others, for one or another reason had great genes. Their environments obviously affected them, I just doubt anywhere near how much their genes affected their intellect. Einstein loathed the school system, and is known for not excelling in school. I think that says a great deal about his not so good environment.

In Einstein case, is it necessarily genes or the variation between brainpower and personalities? I don't know how much is it associated with genes because I personally feel x10 times smarter than my conservative somewhat-religious parents who never took science and can't even speak a word of English (we're all Jewish by ethnicity, although not European Jews)

If it is genes, how do you explain the huge variation in brainpower? You get really really dumb Jews and really really smart ones. One would think that genes would be more consistent, as they are visually.

-Dory

[Dhamma]

If it is genes, how do you explain the huge variation in brainpower? You get really really dumb Jews and really really smart ones. One would think that genes would be more consistent, as they are visually.

I'd like someone with better knowledge in how genes work to answer that. I don't see how jews have more stimulating environments than e.g. Swedes or Japanese. We have a culture that encourage you to work and school yourself as much as possible. And while we're successful, we still don't have many elite scientists, apart from Linné and Nobel. There's about nine millions of us. Japan has a similar culture to ours and they're about 130 million. How many Einsteins do they have?

[Or Bar]

Right, I can't back up the culture thing it's just my theory but I prefer that to "genes" partly because it's a scary concept. If we find out that's true, what's stopping us to find out that whites could be smarter than blacks? And what are we supposed to do with this information? People would then try to justify racism scientifically. That'd be an awful future.

I'd like to think that the variation between our brain powers is big enough between all races and ethnicities that it makes no difference, that's what my intuition tells me. Of course the truth is more important than what I'd like to think, I'm just letting you know I have a bias for equality.

-Dory

[DjTal]

Could it be that jews have in fact been positively discriminated in favour of by european and american peoples? Whilst we normally hear about how jews have been persecuted throughout the centuries, and terrible things have been done to jews, for the most part jews have been a welcomed and tolerated addition to european and american society. And indeed further than that, been seen as a special group, especially among more enlightened members of european christian culture. Might not enlightened christians have seen jews as more 'christ like' (perhaps having God like qualities), than christ killers. Perhaps christian feelings of guilt and remorse for what was done to the jews, then subsequent charity and favouritism towards jews, have elevated jews to positions of authority in various areas of life.

[aspire1670]

Could it be that jews have in fact been positively discriminated in favour of by european and american peoples?

No.

Whilst we normally hear about how jews have been persecuted throughout the centuries, and terrible things have been done to jews, for the most part jews have been a welcomed and tolerated addition to european and american society.

No they haven't.

And indeed further than that, been seen as a special group, especially among more enlightened members of european christian culture. Might not enlightened christians have seen jews as more 'christ like' (perhaps having God like qualities), than christ killers. Perhaps christian feelings of guilt and remorse for what was done to the jews, then subsequent charity and favouritism towards jews, have elevated jews to positions of authority in various areas of life.

More christ like? You lost me there but no again in answer to your other questions.

[DjTal]

Could it be that jews have in fact been positively discriminated in favour of by european and american peoples?

No.

Whilst we normally hear about how jews have been persecuted throughout the centuries, and terrible things have been done to jews, for the most part jews have been a welcomed and tolerated addition to european and american society.

No they haven't.

And indeed further than that, been seen as a special group, especially among more enlightened members of european christian culture. Might not enlightened christians have seen jews as more 'christ like' (perhaps having God like qualities), than christ killers. Perhaps christian feelings of guilt and remorse for what was done to the jews, then subsequent charity and favouritism towards jews, have elevated jews to positions of authority in various areas of life.

More christ like? You lost me there but no again in answer to your other questions.

Care to explain any of those disagreements?

[aspire1670]

Could it be that jews have in fact been positively discriminated in favour of by european and american peoples?

No.

Whilst we normally hear about how jews have been persecuted throughout the centuries, and terrible things have been done to jews, for the most part jews have been a welcomed and tolerated addition to european and american society.

No they haven't.

And indeed further than that, been seen as a special group, especially among more enlightened members of european christian culture. Might not enlightened christians have seen jews as more 'christ like' (perhaps having God like qualities), than christ killers. Perhaps christian feelings of guilt and remorse for what was done to the jews, then subsequent charity and favouritism towards jews, have elevated jews to positions of authority in various areas of life.

More christ like? You lost me there but no again in answer to your other questions.

Care to explain any of those disagreements?

What is it about the word no that you don't understand? You might try reading some history books particularly those that deal with the political and social background that led up to the 1905 Aliens Act in the UK to understand just how wide of the mark you are in your ludicrous assertions regarding positive discrimination in favour of Jews in Britain.

[DjTal]

What is it about the word no that you don't understand? You might try reading some history books particularly those that deal with the political and social background that led up to the 1905 Aliens Act in the UK to understand just how wide of the mark you are in your ludicrous assertions regarding positive discrimination in favour of Jews in Britain.

The Aliens Act of 1905 is something which attempted to deal with the problem of immigration, attempts were made by some to include in this a limit on the number of jews entering the country from eastern europe, but completely failed.

The point i was making was a wider one. Obviously there have been examples of bad behavior towards jews. The Aliens Act of 1905 could have been turned into something against jews but more enlightened members of British society prevented it, as a result jews were given safe refuge in this country.

This same thinking can be applied across the centuries in other in other situations and countries also. Its unfair only to talk about the persecution of jews, since a great deal of goodwill has been shown as well.

[aspire1670]

The Aliens Act of 1905 is something which attempted to deal with the problem of immigration, attempts were made by some to include in this a limit on the number of jews entering the country from eastern europe, but completely failed.

So you haven't read anything about the background that led up to the Act or it's influence in diverting Jewish migration to the USA.

The point i was making was a wider one. Obviously there have been examples of bad behavior towards jews. The Aliens Act of 1905 could have been turned into something against jews but more enlightened members of British society prevented it, as a result jews were given safe refuge in this country.

Bad behaviour? But the wider point (your wider point) is that somehow this all resulted in positive discrimination in favour of Jews in the UK and the USA. This is flatly contradicted by the evidence. You might wish to consult the Library of Congress here: http://archives.ucl.ac.uk/DServe/dserve ... Db=Catalog Or David Cesarani here: http://books.google.com/books?id=RK9gQD ... q=&f=false

This same thinking can be applied across the centuries in other in other situations and countries also. Its unfair only to talk about the persecution of jews, since a great deal of goodwill has been shown as well.

[/quote]

But you are the one who raised the issue of jews and discrimination. Nice way to move the goal posts.