Why Richard Dawkins is Wrong About God

[pinetree]

....
Our ape brains are limited.
.....
Truly Man is limited in everything we do. Very limited. It's not that Man is bad, he is just limited.
....

But not limited enough to decide that there is a god and that his god is the only true one.

In this exact moment I am writing on a computer that analyses every instruction in his program about 6 billion times a second, it reads from a library at a speed of 100 million words per second, the library space i have available in my room is capable of containing about 5 trillion words.
all this was done by ape brains.
Some factories make over a million of these systems per month, in the world in this moment we might have something like 3 billion artificial brains working accessing over 1 billion trillion words.

You imaginary god is not even able to communicate to anyone, let alone show himself, everyone has to play on beliefs, there are thousands of Christian groups, the world is divided in 3 major religious beliefs, Christians, Muslims and atheists (not grouped in any way).

[Chairman Bill]

I suppose that the OP's reference to our 'ape brains' shows that he's at least accepted the reality of evolution

[Thurston]

To my mind, absolute certainty and atheism are mutually exclusive.

[pawiz]

To my mind, absolute certainty and atheism are mutually exclusive.

Are you certain about that?

[Thurston]

No

[Jack Rawlinson]

*Yawn*. More impotent flailing at the straw atheist. Tiresome.

[Jack Rawlinson]

*Yawn*. More impotent flailing at the straw atheist. Tiresome.

[Jack Rawlinson]

Oops. Double post. Not sure how I did that...

[TheLilacPilgrim]

OP, you owe me the three seconds it took me to read that drivel. I haven't read TGD in its entirety either, but the little bit that I have skimmed over is enough to tell me that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, I'd check to make sure other people haven't made the same claims that you have before you decide to jump in with them. Your post was fairly standard. I'm very disappointed in how boring it was.

http://doctore0.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/fail2.jpg

[sking1981]

Here's my scientific and rational argument

Great! Looking forward to it

The universe is enormous. The Solar System is enormous - how big ? So big you could barely imagine it. Literally, you could barely imagine it. Your ape brain evolved to deal with berry-picking and walking across a savana, to find a mate, not to understand the size of the Solar System. And the Solar System is so very very very minute in the scale of things, the universe itself is utterly unimaginably large next to it even something that big. The universe is beyond us to understand it fully

.

Not really in the realms of "scientific" yet. But I'll agree the universe is unimaginably big, though I'd never say it's forever beyond our comprehension, once upon a time the internal combustion engine was unimaginable.

Yes you have an IPhone and it is very exciting. Everyday we are bombarded with adverts saying Bigger, Faster, Better - and it's easy to believe that people are evolving as fast as technology - but it doesn't work like that

Correct up until this point. It certainly does not work like that, because technology can only advance in line with our comprehension. We cannot invent something more complicated than we can conceive. If this were possible we'd have cave paintings of jetfighters.

We are version 1.0 - at best

Interesting concept as you use an analogy that infers design, but why would any designer make a v0.5? How could it be less than v1.0?

And let's talk about us, about Man

Sure man, like whatever man, what about us?

Look at how people live, sure everyone has their day when they think of something cool or make some great art - and that's great, but we are apes and really make a mess of our lives. Look at our society and planet, what a mess. Debt, suicide, war, discontent. It's not pretty.

It sure ain't! I say we roll back to v0.9 until the developer has debugged v1.0, I'll race you back to the trees

It's not that Man is bad, he is just limited.

Limited by the laws of physics? Limited by the law of men? Sorry please expand on this

And as for Science, going back over the centuries how many mistakes has it made. It was mostly mistakes wasn't it ?

I don't know, how many mistakes has science made? Or fo you mean how many errors have scientists made based on the knowledge they had available at the time, but was later revised or refuted by other s ientists who had new knowledge?

Regardless of errors the human being now has a life expectancy nearly double that which it was 500 years ago. All thanks to scientific breakthroughs. It's also benfutted us culturallyby allowing a lot if us to see through mindless religous dogma which enslaved the human race for millenia

And here comes Richard Dawkins proclaiming :

"Hey guys, I have solved it, I know that "God Doesn't Exist" and I understand how the universe works."

It's ridiculous isn't it. For a being with such limitations and a history littered with mistake after mistake to declare "I Know".

But RD is certain, very certain. About as certain as the Christian priests he so reviles.

I'm certain, very certain, that you really, absolutely really just made that up. But I'll give you s chance to provide a citation.

RD taunts non-atheists, taunts people who believe that something might exist beyond Science. People who understand their limitations.

So he taunts people who believe in something that he doesn't? At least he doesn't want to stone them to death. Pretty sure he can take the moral high ground on this one.

In fact the truth is that being human means looking out into a gigantic world and saying yes I am stupid

The truth is just because we don't know yet, doesn't mean we won't one day. 2000 years ago people looked up at the gigantic star we now call the sun and believed god moved it around the sky for our benefit. Now we know that's bullshit.

RD talks about how religious people cling to the certainty of their religions to help them overcome the fear of death. Well RD clings to Science to help him overcome the fear of life, and the fear of not having certainty. Cling on, RD, Cling on

Religous people cling to religion because they are poorly educated or unwilling to learn. RD doesn't cling to science, he uses it to understand what is observed, if that challenges something already held as fact and has credible support behind it I'm sure he'd happily accept it. He like most other atheists will not accept something unless there is evidence to back it up.

Now I hope you actually bother to respond or elaborate, but I think we're all pretty sure you're not going to.

[Electric Sheep]

[oldskeptic]

Rideforever wrote:
Your ape brain evolved to deal with berry-picking and walking across a savana, to find a mate, not to understand the size of the Solar System.

Actually the modern human brain evolved to handle complicated social behavior which meant a large amount of abstract thought as well as imagination was required along with a good working memory and a vast amount of long term memory capacity. A large frontal cortex to sort out logically, based on experience, what to do with automatic emotional responses from the limbic system was also a requirement.

Conveniently for both science and religion these evolved systems and traits such as curiosity enable/d humans to imagine many things outside of perceptual experience.

The Human brain did not evolve to do simple tasks like pick berries or walk upright. It evolved into a very complex organ because there was environmental pressure in the form of highly complicated social interactions to handle highly complicated matters.

We have ape brains because we are apes, so good so far, but this is as far as it goes and there is no point here because all ape brains are not the same. The Gibbon brain is the least complex, the Orangutan a bit more complex, Gorillas more still, Chimps closer, but humans are at the top of the pile and so far ahead of the other apes that any statement implying that all we have is the brain of an ape and therefore are stupid is, to put it kindly uninformed.

[beatriceleclercq]

Here's my scientific and rational argument : [bla, bla, bla] Cling on, RD, Cling on.

Klingon, rideforever, Klingon.

I'm sorry, I know it's an awful derail, I just couldn't resist...

[dendendaloom]

... About as certain as the Christian priests he so reviles.

The mistake is the certainty coming from something so limited - it's ridiculous.
...

Say no more.

[hackenslash]

Here's my scientific and rational argument :

Ooh, science and reason! My favourites! Let's have a shufty.

The universe is enormous. The Solar System is enormous - how big ? So big you could barely imagine it. Literally, you could barely imagine it. Your ape brain evolved to deal with berry-picking and walking across a savana, to find a mate, not to understand the size of the Solar System. And the Solar System is so very very very minute in the scale of things, the universe itself is utterly unimaginably large next to it even something that big. The universe is beyond us to understand it fully.

OK, let's do some science then, since you insist that this is a scientific argument. Do you actually have any evidence to support the ex recto assertion that the universe is beyond our ability to understand? Or did you, as I suspect, just fucking make it up?

Yes you have an IPhone and it is very exciting. Everyday we are bombarded with adverts saying Bigger, Faster, Better - and it's easy to believe that people are evolving as fast as technology - but it doesn't work like that. We are version 1.0 - at best. Our ape brains are limited.

Again, some evidence might be nice, or are you just here to demonstrate that you have great skill at emptying your bowels in the direction of others?

And let's talk about us, about Man. Look at how people live, sure everyone has their day when they think of something cool or make some great art - and that's great, but we are apes and really make a mess of our lives. Look at our society and planet, what a mess. Debt, suicide, war, discontent. It's not pretty.

On the other hand, we have babies, mountains, medicine and the technology that gives you your comfortable lifestyle and the leisure to talk absolute fucking nonsense at people the world over, regardless of whether or not you actually have anything interesting or important to say.

Truly Man is limited in everything we do. Very limited. It's not that Man is bad, he is just limited.

More evidence-free assertions, is it? Are oyu actually going to get anywhere near this scientific and rational argument you promised us, or is it just more of the same cretinous drivel we've come to expect from the deluded?

And as for Science, going back over the centuries how many mistakes has it made. It was mostly mistakes wasn't it ?

Was it? Can you demonstrate that with evidence? Further, when science did make mistakes, by what means were those mistakes discovered? That's right! More fucking science. Really, if this is the best you have, perhaps the CBeebies forum would be more your speed.

And here comes Richard Dawkins proclaiming :

"Hey guys, I have solved it, I know that "God Doesn't Exist" and I understand how the universe works."

Now you are lying about a forum member. Post reported. Unless, of course, you can provide evidence that he said either of those things? No? Didn't fucking think so. Perhaps you should try reading what he actually fucking says, instead of making shit up and attempting to pass it off as fact. Most of us here are perfectly familiar with what Dawkins has said on these topics, and you would do well to remember that. Lying about forum members and misrepresenting what they say is against the forum rules.

It's ridiculous isn't it. For a being with such limitations and a history littered with mistake after mistake to declare "I Know".

What does the professor claim to know? Be sure that it is something that he actually did claim, or you will have another report to add to the first.

But RD is certain, very certain. About as certain as the Christian priests he so reviles.

Certain about what? Are you still lying? Isn't their something about lying in your book of ridiculous wibble about that? I'm sure there was something in there about telling the truth.

The mistake is the certainty coming from something so limited - it's ridiculous.

No, what's ridiculous is that you think this argument of yours is in any way rational, scientific or even fucking original. This is some of the lowest grade fucknuttery I have come across in some time.

RD taunts non-atheists, taunts people who believe that something might exist beyond Science.

No, he quite rightly says that the belief is fucking ridiculous, and it is. He is perfectly aware that even the most cretinous of people can be very nice and charming.

People who understand their limitations.

You mean people who accept limitations imposed upon them by liars for their magic men, like your fucking priests. Wankers, the lot of them, lying through their fucking teeth, just like your contribution here. I have a feeling you're not going to like it here very much.

In fact the truth is that being human means looking out into a gigantic world and saying yes I am stupid.

You said that. For me to say so would be a breach of the forum rules, but I'm certainly not going to disagree with your assessment of yourself.

RD talks about how religious people cling to the certainty of their religions to help them overcome the fear of death.

Where did he say that? I think you'll find that it is believers, for the most part, that have a fear of death, so if that is their motivation, that's yet another thing about these fucking ridiculous belief systems that doesn't work, along with prayer.

Well RD clings to Science to help him overcome the fear of life, and the fear of not having certainty. Cling on, RD, Cling on.

Wrong again. Dawkins doesn't cling to anything, he quite rightly enjoys science, because knowledge and understanding are better than abject ignorance. Not that you'd know that, of course, judging by the ignorant arse-gravy you have displayed here.

Poor job. Really, dude, if you want to put a good argument together against Dawkins, you could try actually reading what he fucking writes. Then have a really good think, write your arguments down, and think about the treatment that I and the critical thinkers here are going to subject them to. Who knows, you might even come up with a rational and scientific argument. This was not, it was simply you shitting all over the forum with inane drivel, of precisely the sort we've come to expect.

[Szymanowski]

I've never heard a less subtle statement of "We can't know God doesn't exist, therefore we should believe in God"

[mizvekov]

Here's my scientific and rational argument :

Ooh, science and reason! My favourites! Let's have a shufty.
...

Bravo! Wish I had the patience to write such detailed posts! Woo makes my brain hurt
Cheers! (Your image of Orson would be appropriate here)

[natselrox]

This guy was reading a book, most probably by Dawkins himself, and when he came across the part where RD explains the inability of our brains to comprehend the magnitude of the universe. And he goes, "Eureka! I got an irrefutable argument against Dawkins. Better than even the almighty banana!", comes here, and posts his 'scientific and rational' argument.

[stijndeloose]

Here's my scientific and rational argument :

Ooh, science and reason! My favourites! Let's have a shufty.
...

Bravo! Wish I had the patience to write such detailed posts! Woo makes my brain hurt
Cheers! (Your image of Orson would be appropriate here)

Seconded!

Good work, Hack!

[stijndeloose]

This guy was reading a book, most probably by Dawkins himself, and when he came across the part where RD explains the inability of our brains to comprehend the magnitude of the universe. And he goes, "Eureka! I got an irrefutable argument against Dawkins. Better than even the almighty banana!", comes here, and posts his 'scientific and rational' argument.

My arms are to short to hug elephants. Therefore God is an elephant.

Oh, he's their excrements too. Can't hug those either.

[pennypitstop]

[James5D]

As I read the subject title, I was half expecting some Scientific Genius to correct RD, something which I'm sure RD would only be too happy to accept should it be based on and backed up by Scientific proof......and as such began to read with great enthusiasm......however as it turned out, this is just drivel and composed by someone who clearly has not read around the subject or of RD's writing.....please point to the page in any of his books where he claims to know all about the universe ?

I think someone needs to get their coat !

[Mantisdreamz]

In this exact moment I am writing on a computer that analyses every instruction in his program about 6 billion times a second, it reads from a library at a speed of 100 million words per second, the library space i have available in my room is capable of containing about 5 trillion words.
all this was done by ape brains.
Some factories make over a million of these systems per month, in the world in this moment we might have something like 3 billion artificial brains working accessing over 1 billion trillion words.

cheers to that

And as for Science, going back over the centuries how many mistakes has it made. It was mostly mistakes wasn't it ?

That is how science moves forward it learns from its mistakes and improves or should I say evolves. Where would we be if there was no experimentation no inquisitiveness. No longing to improve our lot.

Exactly... how silly it is to think that because mistakes and f-ups exist, that anything else that arises from them must also be some misleading nonsense. Surely, you know from your personal experience, that you tend to make errors and misjudgements to essentially get things right. And the Blackberry & iPhones are working realities that came from manipulating and refining the mistakes that science has made to figuring out the environment we live in. We get to 'enjoy' or maybe despise all the technologies around us, because of our tinkering. Yes, we still have a ways to go, and who knows what the future will be capable of...

And let's talk about us, about Man. Look at how people live, sure everyone has their day when they think of something cool or make some great art - and that's great, but we are apes and really make a mess of our lives. Look at our society and planet, what a mess. Debt, suicide, war, discontent. It's not pretty.

Ya, I can agree that we make a mess of things. But, I think it's because there's some ignorant element within us... the same element that causes judgements, racism, our tendency to have pre-conceived notions, our ability to mimic our elders and some of their strange notions on how life should be because we don't know any better... Everyone wants to think that they know how life works and so some people create these beliefs & theories (religion) and become so blinded by them, that we end up in a confused emotional mess. Look at what religion has done to us... it's caused suppressed instinctual feelings, separatism... and war!... to name but a few. But, there's no need to dwell on that... You might want to dwell on the fact that science has made errors and so doesn't know everything and is not all encompassing. Fine. But, that's why science is open-ended. Unlike religion that is oh so closed. I know that all all-encompassing god doesn't seem like a very closed concept, but stating that as if it's a fact is just downright irritating, obnoxious, and kind of egotistical. Why not just be satisfied with what we have learned and take it step by step until we get to that 'grand unified theory' that may incorporate a creator of the universe... or, very well, may *not*. Why jump ahead and assume that you have all the answers, religion?!

Anyway, I just passed a section in RD's T.G.S.O.E in which he had an interview with some chick who was doing a documentary on 'The Genius of Charles Darwin'. In this interview, the interviewer, Wendy, was basically pleading to Dawkin's to "show me the facts" of human evolution. He stated, well certainly, go to a museum and see the skulls of Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus and finally, Homo sapiens. She failed to acknowledge any of this and just kept on pleading that she wanted to see the facts...

Come on now, wouldn't you feel a resentment towards a completely resistant person who wouldn't listen to anything being said by you? She didn't want to hear what was being said by him because it went against her ever-precious and unstable views due to religion! So what if he sounds a little bit bitter with resentment towards religion, in general. I would be too, if I kept on having sh*t thrown in my face by people who refused to listen to real facts, and essentially, truths.

[Biggus]

And as for Science, going back over the centuries how many mistakes has it made. It was mostly mistakes wasn't it ?

Was it? Can you demonstrate that with evidence? Further, when science did make mistakes, by what means were those mistakes discovered? That's right! More fucking science. Really, if this is the best you have, perhaps the CBeebies forum would be more your speed.

A classic ripost if ever I saw one

[FlytE]

To be honest I dont even think this is worth commenting on... it just reads as one person's musings. Musing doesn't really provide anything to discuss.

Where did this guys 'declaration' come from anyway?