Did Prof. Dawkins really say this?

[Richard Dawkins]

Ravi Zacharias keeps telling everyone that, Richard Dawkins once asked Oxford University to deny admission to Creationists.

I have no idea who Ravi Zacharias is, and the YouTube video where he is said to have told this lie has been taken down.

Of course I have never asked Oxford University to deny admission to creationists. I have quoted the distinguished philosopher A J Ayer as saying to me, when I told him that I had a creationist student, "What's gone wrong with our admissions procedure?" Ayer was, of course, joking, but there is a serious point here. NOBODY is ever going to print, in a book of rules, "Oxford University will not admit any creationist students" (although in past centuries exactly that kind of rule was on the statute books with respect to the wrong species of Christianity). Of course Ayer would never have advocated any such rule, and nor would I. However, I would hope that the admissions procedures of a great university, especially given that entrance is so competitive, would be sufficiently well-tailored to exclude people who are stupid or ignorant. And that would automatically exclude young earth creationists.

Richard

[MedGen]

However, I would hope that the admissions procedures of a great university, especially given that entrance is so competitive, would be sufficiently well-taliored to exclude people who are stupid or ignorant. And that would automatically exclude young earth creationists.

Wishful Richard. I'm sure you know the reality isn't that easy at all. I say that based on the fact that there is a large Muslim community at my university, many of whom are YEC's. In fact the young lady I currently work along side, and one of the top students in our year, is a YEC because of her strident beliefs. I'm not condoning it in any way, it just isn't possible to eliminate people like that when everything else counts in their favour. In all honesty the university isn't exactly known for its prodigious research record in biology, compared to the likes of Oxbridge.

[-TheCodeCrack-]

However, I would hope that the admissions procedures of a great university, especially given that entrance is so competitive, would be sufficiently well-taliored to exclude people who are stupid or ignorant. And that would automatically exclude young earth creationists.

Wishful Richard. I'm sure you know the reality isn't that easy at all. I say that based on the fact that there is a large Muslim community at my university, many of whom are YEC's. In fact the young lady I currently work along side, and one of the top students in our year, is a YEC because of her strident beliefs. I'm not condoning it in any way, it just isn't possible to eliminate people like that when everything else counts in their favour. In all honesty the university isn't exactly known for its prodigious research record in biology, compared to the likes of Oxbridge.

It might not exclude all young earth creationists, but I think it would exclude most of them if a pure system was in place that excluded stupid and/or ignorant people from being admitted to a university. It would be great, however, to have some statistics on these yec's. How well do they perform compared to non-yec's ? Would it be advantageous to the university to sieve out yec's, by sieving out the less intelligent and ignorant people? It'd have to be, wouldn't it. If it is competitive to obtain a place in the university, a sieve should be created to sieve out the people who are less intelligent from obtaining admission to the university; most yec's would be sieved out.

[MedGen]

It might not exclude all young earth creationists, but I think it would exclude most of them if a pure system was in place that excluded stupid and/or ignorant people from being admitted to a university. It would be great, however, to have some statistics on these yec's. How well do they perform compared to non-yec's ? Would it be advantageous to the university to sieve out yec's, by sieving out the less intelligent and ignorant people? It'd have to be, wouldn't it. If it is competitive to obtain a place in the university, a sieve should be created to sieve out the people who are less intelligent from obtaining admission to the university; a lot of yec's would be sieved out.

The system of admission based on academic achievement alone would filter out a large proportion of YEC's from biology and physics at least, yes, chemistry I'm not so sure about. Not to mention that many of them wouldn't be studying biological sciences in the first place. YEC's taking biology here might be more of a geographical phenomenon, there's a large Muslim community here in Yorkshire, many of whom are unlikely to move far from home to attend university.

In terms of academic achievement whilst at university for these YEC's, based on my experiences so far my colleague may be something of an outlier. Most of them don't even take modules on evolution, or appreciate the importance of evolution. I'd love to be able to sit down with her and talk about sometime, preferably with a large stack of papers and books by my side.

As I said before; for the more prodigious academic institutions I can't see it being a problem to weed out the average YEC, other institutions aren't able be quite so picky with their admissions unfortunately.

[louzer]

Thanks for the reply, Dr. Dawkins.

I failed to give the links where Ravi Zacharias makes his claims about you:

1st Link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0359&hl=en
Ravi makes the claim about you at 05:19 in the whole video. He mentions that:
a. He gives lectures at Oxford 3 times every year
b. He is a Senior Research Fellow at Oxford
c. You wrote an article asking Oxford to deny admission to Creationists.

2nd Link: http://reasondriven.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... n-day.html
I can't download their 28th episode in the link above. But Ravi makes the same claim about you.

I am pretty sure Ravi is lying, so I was wondering whether anyone could verify for me whether claims a. and b. are true or false. I wouldn't be surprised to find Ravi was never a Senior Research fellow at Oxford.

Thanks once again.

[RichardPrins]

The Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics
http://www.theocca.org/

[Richard Dawkins]

The Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics
http://www.theocca.org/

Understandably enough, Oxford attracts a motley riff-raff of institutions, hangers-on that have no official connection with the university but which cash in on the name. People think they are coming to Oxford University, or make out to other people that they have been to Oxford University, when really there is no connection.

It takes a while, but it you assiduously search the website of the "Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics" you can find some small print, which says, "The Certificate in Christian Apologetics is awarded by Wycliffe Hall on completion of the programme. It is not accredited by Oxford University. "

The statement by Ravi Zacharias that I wrote an article asking Oxford to ban students who believed in Intelligent Design is, of course, a lie. Yet more Lying for Jesus. I really believe they think that, because it is for Jesus, it is OK to lie.

Richard

[RichardPrins]

Understandably enough, Oxford attracts a motley riff-raff of institutions, hangers-on that have no official connection with the university but which cash in on the name. People think they are coming to Oxford University, or make out to other people that they have been to Oxford University, when really there is no connection.

It takes a while, but it you assiduously search the website of the "Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics" you can find some small print, which says, "The Certificate in Christian Apologetics is awarded by Wycliffe Hall on completion of the programme. It is not accredited by Oxford University. "

Both points (using Oxford's prestige and the fact that the courses are not accredited by the university itself) should indeed become clear when one looks at their About Us page.

[adamd164]

Both points (using Oxford's prestige and the fact that the courses are not accredited by the university itself) should indeed become clear when one looks at their About Us page.

Yes, both are clear - one's just a little more clear than the other!

[beamishboy]

I really don't know what the fuss is but as a Christian and an altar boy in the Church of England (for more than half my life), I really think universities should be careful about admitting people who say a dinosaur is 3000 years old when anybody can tell you they have been extinct for 65 million years. If I sat in the board of admissions in Oxford or any other universities, I would immediately discredit anyone who believes in such rubbish just as I would not admit someone who believes the earth doesn't move.

What exactly is the problem?

[louzer]

The problem is that some people will accept evidence at the face of it. So we should let everyone in and shown them the real world.