Meisner compares Dawkins to Hitler

[Vfp]

I just saw this on a german news site :
http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Meisner-diesmal-gegen-Dawkins-article572128.html
I haven't found anything english about this yet and mine certainly isn't good enough to translate this article.

Meisner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Meisner) a catholic cardinal compares Dawkins to Hitler by saying that both of them see humans only as package for important genes. He has been in the news for Nazi comparisons before. An article about sth. he said earlier: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6996251.stm I hope there is someone in this forum who is able to translate the whole article.

I'd like to here Professor Dawkins response to this as soon as there is one.

[Teuton]

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,658589,00.html

[Invictus_88]

Not true. Hitler saw them as so much more.

[Varangian]

Pot - kettle - black (or Topf - Kessel - Schwarz, if you prefer that).

[Animavore]

Should be called Cardinal Godwin.
I hope someone can translate this or the gist of it.

[susu.exp]

I´ll translate that one:

Another Nazi comparison: Meisner against Dawkins this time

Several times in the past Colognes Archbishop Joachim Meisner made widely publicized comparisons to National socialism. This time he states that the world view of evolutioanry biologist Richard Dawkins is close to the NS-ideology.

"Similar to the natioal socialists seeing the individual human primarily as carrier of the genome of his race, the champion of the new godless, the englishman Richard Dawkins, also defines the human being as 'vehicle of the soley important genes', whose preservance is the primary purpose of our existence", the 75 year old Cardinal claims in his pre-published sermon for all-hallows eve in the Cologne Cathedral.

The Oxford professor and author of bestsellers Dawkins is a strong critic of religion. With books like "The God Delusion" he wants to convince as many people as possible of atheism. Religion is dangerous according to Dawkins - it opresses humans and incites hatred among them.

Meisners comparisons to Nazis are notorious. He called all non-religious art "entartet" and drew parallels between abortion and the Holocaust. This time his targets are Dawkins, but also the philosopher Peter Singer: "His (Dawkins) australian cooperator Peter singer holds a pig or an ape to be more valuable than a helpless baby or a weak old person, which may in principle be killed or scientifically examined, unless the interest of relatives goes against it.", acording to Meisner. "That´s not some fantasy of horror I´m propunding, it is the truly horrifying reality".

Like the communists of the DGR the atheistic scientists are trying to convince people "that there is no god, and therefore there´s neither truth nor lie, neither good nor bad" Meisner further claimed. "The system of Nazism and Communism in the past century showed us where this leads: To the edge of the abyss, to the elimination of mankind in the final consequence. That´s what concentration camps and Gulags stand for."

"Dignity only through god"

The dignity of every single human being - no matter whether they are sick, disabled or demented - can only be justified by him being an image of god. This is coupled to a clear system of values with a differentiation between good and evil and the notion of free will in the eyes of Meisner. All of this is being questioned by neuroscientists and evolutionists, Meisner: "The positivistic materialism and evolutionism of the new atheists seeks to - along with the faith in god - destroy the christian view of humans as the image of god and as reasonable and moral people.

Amazing, but sadly what we´ve come to expect from Meisner. As Becker famouly stated "Meisner was send to the Rheinland by god for 3 reasons: as a reminder, a quest and a pennence." After all the rheinic catholicism has always been liberal, with it´s own trinity "saufe, poppe, kartekloppe" (Drink, fuck, gamble) and it´s central dogma "jede jeck is andors" ("we are all different" - later stolen by Monty Python), leading to a populace that´s both highly catholic, but also very tolerant, including the biggest gay populace of europe, the fertile ground of germans feminist movement. That type of catholicism, which is harldy even annoying, was countered by the church in setting up Meißner, who´s settled with the task of making local catholicism as bad as elsewhere all by himself. Which is hard to do in an areas where catholic priest hand out free condoms at the gay pride parade and where some theological seminars hold the view that god doesn´t exist...

[Animavore]

Cheers susu. Quite enlightening

[seals]

I tried the other one in Google translate resulting in an impression of hysterical gobbledegook...

http://translate.google.com/translate?p ... ry_state0=

Meisner biologist Dawkins compares with Nazis

DPA
Politically Incorrect: Cardinal Joachim Meisner tried Nazi comparisons
Sharp attack from Cologne: Archbishop Cardinal Meisner has compared his sermon at All Saints, the ideas of the British biologist Richard Dawkins with those of National Socialism. It is not the first Nazi comparison of conservative church man.

Cologne - The archbishop of Cologne, Cardinal Joachim Meisner, has once again provided with a Nazi comparison for attention. Meisner compared in a widely read text of his Sunday sermon in Cologne Cathedral of All Saints, the world view of evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins with the Nazis.

"Just like the old Nazis in the individual primarily saw only the bearer of the heritage of his race, also defined the vanguard of the new godless, the Englishman Richard Dawkins, the human being as 'packaging of the only important genes', whose preservation the primary purpose of our existence was, "said Meisner, according to the manuscript.
Dawkins, the British evolutionary theorist regarded as one of the most influential biologists, and as one of the most prominent critics of religion. The bestselling author has won several awards in the past with prestigious awards. With his latest book was against the "God Delusion" the zoologist, the faithful of all religions provoked.

Not the first Nazi Comparison

Meisner is not looking for the first time compared with the Nazis. His remarks were repeatedly raised in the past, a wave of indignation. He drew parallels between abortion and the Holocaust. Religion distant culture he called "degenerate."

In his sermon at All Saints of Cologne, Cardinal said, according to speech manuscript, "the man himself has created man can not step more than a gift of the Creator in the world but as a product of our making, which could be selected according to self-imposed requirements. About this person no longer shine the brightness of the image of God, who give him his dignity and integrity, but only the power of human skill.

Meisner said: "The System of National Socialism and Communism in the past century has shown us where this leads: Not more happiness and freedom of man, but to the brink of the abyss, ultimately to the abolition of man. That's the concentration camp are and gulags. "

cpa / ddp

[Teuton]

I just saw this on a german news site :
http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Meisner-diesmal-gegen-Dawkins-article572128.html

"'Ähnlich wie einst die Nationalsozialisten im einzelnen Menschen primär nur den Träger des Erbgutes seiner Rasse sahen, definiert auch der Vorreiter der neuen Gottlosen, der Engländer Richard Dawkins, den Menschen als 'Verpackung der allein wichtigen Gene', deren Erhaltung der vorrangige Zweck unseres Daseins sei', sagte der 75-jährige Kardinal ..."
———
"'Similar to the national socialists, who primarily regarded the human individual just as the carrier of his race's genome, the trailblazer of the new godless, the Englishman Richard Dawkins, defines man as 'packaging of the solely important genes', whose preservation is the prime purpose of our existence,' said the 75-year-old cardinal ..."
[© my transl.]

[CJ]

Interesting

[NineBerry]

Today, celebrating the Catholic "All Saints" holiday, Catholic Cardinal Meisner of Cologne has given a sermon that rants against "new atheism", compares it to national socialism and communism and predicts that it will not have a future.

here is the full text of the sermon in German: http://www.kath.net/detail.php?id=24391

Right now I am too lazy to translate the full text, especially since it is (as typical for such sermons) full of empty meaningless words that I wouldn't know how to translate correctly. But I will try and translate the biggest chunks:

Als ehemaliger DDR-Bürger habe ich das Allerheiligenfest immer als das große Siegesfest über den so genannten wissenschaftlichen Atheismus erfahren. Mit der Verzierung „wissenschaftlich“ hat man den Menschen weismachen wollen, dass mit dem Tode alles aus ist, dass es keinen Gott gibt und deswegen auch nicht Wahrheit oder Lüge, Gut oder Böse. [...]

As a former citizen of the GDR [Socialist East Germany], I have always perceived the All Saints holiday as the great celebration of the victory over so called scientific atheism. Using the decorative addition "scientific" was an attempt to hoax the people into believing that everything ends at death, that there was no God and therefore also not truth and falseness, good and evil. [...]

Ich hätte gar nicht gedacht, dass dieser Unsinn von damals heute wieder Auferstehung feiert, indem der Mensch und seine Welt wieder wie damals auf das quantitativ Messbare reduziert und gleichsam in das Gefängnis der Quantitäten eingesperrt werden.

I had not expected that this nonsense of the past would be resurrected again today, that a human being and his world would again (like in the past) be reduced to the measurable and confined in the prison of quantity.

Dass dabei der Mensch auf der Strecke bleibt, damals wie heute, scheint raffiniert verdrängt zu werden. Das hat zur Folge, dass der Mensch außerhalb seiner Berechnungen und Planungen keine tragende Realität und moralische Instanz mehr kennt. So abgeschnitten von allen geistigen und religiösen Wurzeln, verliert die so genannte wissenschaftliche Vernunft das Korrektiv für sein Denken und Handeln.

That this means that humanity is left behind (now as then) seems to be forgotten. The result is that humans don't know any supporting reality and moral instance outside their calculations and planing. So isolated from all spiritual and religious roots, the so called scientific reason looses its corrective for its thinking and action.

Wie Walter Ulbricht damals hat man auch heute aus dieser so genannten wissenschaftlichen Erkenntnis neue Zehn Gebote formuliert, die da heißen: „Du sollst nicht glauben! Du sollst dir kein Selbstbildnis machen und es Gott nennen! Du sollst keine Götter neben dir dulden! Du sollst keinen Schöpfer haben! Du sollst deine Kinder ehren und sie deshalb mit Gott in Frieden lassen! Sei auch gut ohne Gott! Du sollst keine Götter neben der Wissenschaft haben! Liebe deinen Nächsten ohne schlechtes Gewissen! Du sollst den Sabbat nicht ehren! Du sollst als Schöpfer nicht knien!“ – Das ist ein Horrorszenarium! „Du sollst keine Götter neben der Wissenschaft haben“, das heißt: Es gibt nur einen einzigen Gott oder Götzen, das ist die so genannte Wissenschaft. [...]

A new set of ten commandments haves been derived from this so called scientific knowledge, just as Walter Ulbricht (first ruler of the GDR) did: "You shall not believe! You shall not make an image of yourself and call it God! You shall not accept any gods besides you! You shall not have a creator! You shall honour your children and therefore don't inflict god on them! Be good without God! You shall not have any gods besides science! Love your neighbour without having a bad conscience! You shall not honour the Sabbath! You shall not kneel because you are the creator!" This is pure horror. "You shall not have any gods besides science". This means: There is only one god or better idol: That is the so called science. [...]

Über diesem Menschen leuchte nicht mehr der Glanz der Gottesebenbildlichkeit, der ihm seine Würde und Unantastbarkeit gebe, sondern nur noch die Macht menschlichen Könnens. Das System des Nationalsozialismus und des Kommunismus im vergangenen Jahrhundert hat uns gezeigt, wohin das führt: Nicht zu mehr Glück und Freiheit des Menschen, sondern an den Rand des Abgrunds, in letzter Konsequenz zur Abschaffung des Menschen. Dafür stehen die KZ’s und Gulags.[...]

Those humans [humans created or enhanced with the help of science] don't shine in the light of their being created in the image of God, which gives them their honour and dignity, but only in the light of human capabilities. The systems of national socialism and communism have shown us in the previous century where this leads to: Not to more happiness and freedom but to the brink, consequently to the abolition of humanity. This is what concentration camps and Gulags symbolize.[...]

Gerade der Gottesglaube und das Bewusstsein des Menschen als Geschöpf Gottes „entsorgt“ und entlastet ihn und schenkt ihm Freude am Leben und große Widerstandsfähigkeit in den Bedrängnissen des Daseins.[...]

The belief in God and the knowledge to be a creation of God is what takes away sorrows and gives happiness to enjoy life and durability in the hardships of life.[...]

„Die Kirche wird das Osterhalleluja noch singen, wenn der wissenschaftliche Atheismus vielleicht nur noch in den Geschichtsbüchern als Relikt menschlicher Verirrung vermerkt wird“.

[Repeating a statement he had made to a communist official 20 years ago] "The church will still sing the Easter celebrations when the scientific atheism is maybe only remembered in the history books as a relict of human confusion."

Nun aber feiert dieser so genannte wissenschaftliche Atheismus fröhliche Auferstehung. Hoffentlich durchschauen die Menschen diesen uralten Dreh, mit dem sie den Gottesglauben verlieren sollen. Es sei nochmals daran erinnert, dass solche Unternehmungen keine harmlosen Experimente einiger Leute sind! Wie damals, so kann das auch heute viele Menschen buchstäblich das Leben kosten.

But now this so called scientific atheism celebrates its happy resurrection. Let us hope that people will see through this ancient trick that tries to make them lose their belief in God. Let us not forget that such enterprises are not harmless experiments by a few individuals! As in the past, many people can literally loose their life because of it.

Der positivistische Materialismus und Evolutionismus der neuen Atheisten möchte – zusammen mit dem Glauben an Gott – auch die christliche Sicht des Menschen als Ebenbild Gottes und vernunftbegabte moralische Person ausmerzen. Auf dieser Grundlage muss jedoch auf eine substanzielle Begründung der Menschenrechte und der Menschenwürde verzichtet werden. Die Personalität des Menschen steht und fällt mit seiner Wahrheitsfähigkeit und Freiheit, die sittliches Handeln erst ermöglichen. Diese wird heute aber gerade von ideologisierten Biophysikern, Hirnforschern und Evolutionisten infrage gestellt.

The positivist materialism and evolutionism of the new atheists does not only want to eradicate the belief in God, but also the Christian perception of human beings as being created in the image of God and being intelligent and moral beings. But on this basis, there is no substantial reason to base human rights and human dignity on. The individuality of a person depends on his free will, which only makes acting ethically possible. But today especially ideologized bio-physicists, neurologists and evolutionists deny that [free will].

Ähnlich wie einst die Nationalsozialisten im einzelnen Menschen primär nur den Träger des Erbgutes seiner Rasse sahen, definiert auch der Vorreiter der neuen Gottlosen, der Engländer Richard Dawkins, den Menschen als „Verpackung der allein wichtigen Gene“, deren Erhaltung der vorrangige Zweck unseres Daseins sei.[...]

Similar to how the national socialists only saw human beings as carriers of their race's genes, so also does the pioneer of the new godless, the Englander Richard Dawkins, consider human beings as merely "the wrapping of the alone import genes" whose proliferation was the paramount purpose of existence.
[...]

[Simon_Gardner]

For you Englander Dawkins, ze war is over.

[Matt H.]

The arrogance, and the nerve to compare Nazism to atheism. That whole speech was a colossal straw man' whenever some religious twerp accuses me of making science my god, I know my attention would be better placed elsewhere.

[juanmodesto]

here is the full text of the sermon in German: http://www.kath.net/detail.php?id=24391

Right now I am too lazy to translate the full text, especially since it is (as typical for such sermons) full of empty meaningless words that I wouldn't know how to translate correctly. But I will try and translate the biggest chunks:

Thanks. His arguments are weak in the extreme.

1. The Nazis were not atheist.
2. Ulbricht had a god too - Stalin.
"We all worshipped God and in his steps we trod,
This god he had it over the one they call Jehovah.."
3. The "Godly" church did next to nothing to oppose Hitler
and Pope JPII beatified Croatian clergy who were deeply
implicated in genocide (Jesenovac camp were 1 million+ Serbs, Jews and Romany
were murdered was run by a Franciscan ) .

[Owtth]

But if Atheism is like Nazism shouldn't Meisner be giving us his full backing?

[BlueTowel]

Honestly, this accusation is so ridiculous I hope Mr Dawkins does NOT in any way respond to it.
Such behaviour and communication on that Nazi-level should simply be ignored.
I m so fed up with people who compare everything they dislike/disagree to Nazis.

[Mononoke]

I just saw this on a german news site :
http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Meisner-diesmal-gegen-Dawkins-article572128.html
I haven't found anything english about this yet and mine certainly isn't good enough to translate this article.

Meisner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Meisner) a catholic cardinal compares Dawkins to Hitler by saying that both of them see humans only as package for important genes. He has been in the news for Nazi comparisons before. An article about sth. he said earlier: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6996251.stm I hope there is someone in this forum who is able to translate the whole article.

I'd like to here Professor Dawkins response to this as soon as there is one.

did hitler know about genes

[NineBerry]

did hitler know about genes

Yes, in the Mendelian sense.

[Galactor]

For you Englander Dawkins, ze war is over.

Eeeh, who ever said the British still hadn't got over the war, eh?

[Concert Donkey]

Bah how boring. I actually prefer it when fundamentalists try more creative arguments. Reading the same things over and over again is quite boring. Herr Meisner can go know himself.

[Teuton]

[Meisner's] arguments are weak in the extreme.

For one very simple reason:

"In the strict sense atheism only entails disbelief in God, so in principle atheists can hold a range of ethical beliefs from various forms of secular moral objectivism to moral nihilism."

(http://www.investigatingatheism.info/morality.html)

Atheism as such is neutral with regard to ethics; and that's why the notorious Hitler-Stalin argument against atheism is a nonstarter.
It merely entails the meta-ethical rejection of theological voluntarism aka divine command theory:

"Divine command theory. This is the view that moral value, principles and moral obligation are grounded in divine will. Systematic reflection on this view goes back at least as far as Plato's 'Euthyphro', and the central difficulty of the view remains much the same, that is, does God command what he commands because it is good (or right), or is the good (the right) what it is just because God commands it? In Western monotheistic traditions it is widely held that God's commands are the basis of moral requirements, and that God is morally perfect. However, the question of the relation between being commanded and being morally right remains problematic. Also, while divine command theory is an approach that clearly gives moral commands enormous authority, there is the further issue of whether moral requirements need to be sanctioned and supported in that way in order to be authoritative for human beings. Why could we not be able to ascertain what is right, and be motivated to do it, just on the basis of our own reason and understanding? Moreover, what is the relation between our moral understanding and revelation? Are there elements of morality that could not be grasped by unaided reason? Even though divine command involves a supernatural being and its will, it can still be seen as a version of moral objectivism because of the status of moral principles. That is, they are objectively right because they are grounded in God's will. Of course, critics of theism will argue that the theistic basis of the approach is a reason for denying that it is a form of objectivism."

(Jacobs, Jonathan A. Ethics A–Z. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 2005. pp. 35-6)

[Teuton]

"In the strict sense atheism only entails disbelief in God, so in principle atheists can hold a range of ethical beliefs from various forms of secular moral objectivism to moral nihilism."
(http://www.investigatingatheism.info/morality.html)

Atheism as such is neutral with regard to ethics; and that's why the notorious Hitler-Stalin argument against atheism is a nonstarter.

Of course, the Meisners of this world cunningly want to make people believe that morality and moral philosophy (ethics) are logically dependent on theism such that "moral atheist" becomes a contradiction in terms; and unfortunately they have been and still are very successful in doing so. This (sad) fact notwithstanding, from the philosophical perspective there can be absolutely no doubt that morality and moral philosophy (ethics) are logically independent of theism!

[InYourFaceNewYorker]

I know a guy in Germany. I will ask him if he can translate it.

But ugh, these people and their stupidity... Okay, I realize I shouldn't comment yet because I haven't read the article, and I'm sure the reason he is making such comments is because he hasn't read the books. So I'm tentatively going to say "These people and their stupidity!" but not "officially" until I read the article. If it turns out that my suspicion is wrong, then I'll humbly retract my remark.

Julie

[Teuton]

I know a guy in Germany. I will ask him if he can translate it.

Why? There already are translations of Meisner's utterances in this thread. Haven't you seen them?

[InYourFaceNewYorker]

I know a guy in Germany. I will ask him if he can translate it.

Why? There already are translations of Meisner's utterances in this thread. Haven't you seen them?

Wow, I really do suck at life. This is what I get for just scrolling straight down. Gonna go read now.