A Challenge To Meat-Eaters

[paddy_rice]

Yeah, no true scotsman.

I'm an Ascotsic. I require proof of Scotsmen, but until then I refuse to believe they exist.

[RuleBritannia]

Yeah, no true scotsman.

I'm an Ascotsic. I require proof of Scotsmen, but until then I refuse to believe they exist.

No true Scotsman is a logical fallacy where the meaning of a term is ad hoc redefined to make a desired assertion about it true. It is a type of self-sealing argument. Like your belief that a vegetarian who eats fish is not a vegetarian.

[paddy_rice]

No true Scotsman is a logical fallacy where the meaning of a term is ad hoc redefined to make a desired assertion about it true. It is a type of self-sealing argument. Like your belief that a vegetarian who eats fish is not a vegetarian.

You don't say? Blow me down with a feather.

[MJongo]

Just to help the discussion, from the Oxford English Dictionary:

vegetarian, n. and a.

A. n.

1. a. One who lives wholly or principally upon vegetable foods; a person who on principle abstains from any form of animal food, or at least such as is obtained by the direct destruction of life.
b. transf. Of animals, etc.

B. adj.

1. Of or pertaining to vegetarians or vegetarianism; practising or advocating vegetarianism.
2. Of animals: Living on vegetables.
3. Consisting of vegetables or plants.

[MotherLodeBeth]

Whenever I hear someone suggest or even demand that everyone be vegetarian, I realize they may not be well read or well traveled. Am sitting here, in an area of the world where fresh fruits and nuts, as well as various grains are easily accessed. Whereas someone in a cold climate cannot either grow a year round vegetable garden like I do, or find the fruits, vegetables and grains easily access able. One need only look at what one apple in Anchorage Alaska costs vs the apple in San Francisco California. People in tropical climates eat mostly fish with some occasional chicken or even pig.

My issue with meat is its production, the waste, and how as an example most Americans (in my view) consume to much meat which results in more meat being produced. Consider for a moment the millions of chickens KFC sells each day. That's alot of feed, water and alas manure. Now I have chickens, and I love their eggs. And the occasional chicken that ends up being cooked, also is a chicken who produces little waste, before or after it is culled. The feet are used to make chicken stock, the combs are eaten as well. The bones are used for making soup, stock and when cooked down further until they are soft, end up as cat food.

Serving sizes here in the states are huge. Even the Japanese exchange students we have had, always commented on how in Japan meat is more of a condiment and not the main part of the meal. Even in Argentina where beef is eaten the ranchers don't place a slab of cooked meat on your plate. The Germans seem to come closest to slam meat servings.


~Beth~

[sking1981]

My wife ran over a cat today, I was in the passenger seat. I looked back after I heard the "thud" from underneath the car.

The cat was writhing and twisting, then suddenly its back legs found footing and ran full speed (the front legs and head were limp, as though the back half was alive and the front half dead) It crashed into the kirb and backflipped onto the pavement and twisted a few more times and then lay still.

My wife (in tears) stopped the car and I jumped out. It had a tag with a phone number which I called, I got a man who explained he was out, but his daughter was home. I told him I would take the cat back to her. I then had to walk round the corner knock the door and explain to an emotional teenage girl what we'd done to her pet.

I told her it didn't suffer, and that it was dead before it hit the floor. The truth just seemed too harsh.

I felt no emotion for the dead cat, but it broke my heart to see the girl's reaction and felt a big lump in my throat. I thought about this thread shortly afterwards and tried to figure out why I only reacted to the girl.

It can't be guilt, I wasn't driving the car so I guess it's empathy. But why for the girl and not fo the cat?

[MotherLodeBeth]

My wife ran over a cat today, I was in the passenger seat. I looked back after I heard the "thud" from underneath the car........I felt no emotion for the dead cat, but it broke my heart to see the girl's reaction and felt a big lump in my throat. I thought about this thread shortly afterwards and tried to figure out why I only reacted to the girl......It can't be guilt, I wasn't driving the car so I guess it's empathy. But why for the girl and not fo the cat?

For me its the idea that its a pet that may mean alot to a family. Or here in the Sierras a cat is often loved by some older person, who when the animal is killed may have a profound effect since older people often have a pet as their only daily connection. And who says a non religious person cannot have empathy for others?

~Beth~

[piratemeg]

In some countries it's really difficult to be a vegetarian. Have any veggies ever been to France? Apparently they don't understand the concept and the best you can do is order a salad and pick the meat out.

Also, about the whole "Why don't we eat people?" thing: There is evidence to show that eating human flesh can cause us to go mad. I can't really remember what happens, but it's something about warped proteins attaching themselves to the brain. If someone knows more I'd be greatful.

Anways, regardless of this, I think that the only things that we ought not to do are the things that damage society. If we started killing people and eating them the society would most likely fall down around us. Killing and eating animals does nothing to damage society.

[cursuswalker]

I think it is immoral to kill any living thing in order to eat, including plants.

Hence vegetarians are also immoral.

[sking1981]

Also, about the whole "Why don't we eat people?" thing: There is evidence to show that eating human flesh can cause us to go mad. I can't really remember what happens, but it's something about warped proteins attaching themselves to the brain. If someone knows more I'd be greatful

I'm not a scientist, but that sounds like BS. I'd be really interested if someone could enlighten us too

unless it's a "omfg I just ate Steve" situation, I could see how that'd mess with your mind

[RuleBritannia]

I think it is immoral to kill any living thing in order to eat, including plants.

Hence vegetarians are also immoral.

To be fair though if you eat fruit and vegtables you're only killing the babies.

[RaspK]

Also, about the whole "Why don't we eat people?" thing: There is evidence to show that eating human flesh can cause us to go mad. I can't really remember what happens, but it's something about warped proteins attaching themselves to the brain. If someone knows more I'd be greatful

I'm not a scientist, but that sounds like BS. I'd be really interested if someone could enlighten us too

unless it's a "omfg I just ate Steve" situation, I could see how that'd mess with your mind

I think piratemeg refers to transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (possibly Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease).

I think it is immoral to kill any living thing in order to eat, including plants.

Hence vegetarians are also immoral.

To be fair though if you eat fruit and vegtables you're only killing the babies.

P.S.: Again, not meaning to participate; just clarifying what I think is said as a moderator, and, to be honest, I did find that last bit exceedingly funny!

[piratemeg]

Also, about the whole "Why don't we eat people?" thing: There is evidence to show that eating human flesh can cause us to go mad. I can't really remember what happens, but it's something about warped proteins attaching themselves to the brain. If someone knows more I'd be greatful

I'm not a scientist, but that sounds like BS. I'd be really interested if someone could enlighten us too

unless it's a "omfg I just ate Steve" situation, I could see how that'd mess with your mind

I think piratemeg refers to transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (possibly Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease).

Exactly! I know what I'm talking about with these science-y matters. I'm not making it up from vague memories at all...

[cursuswalker]

I think it is immoral to kill any living thing in order to eat, including plants.

Hence vegetarians are also immoral.

To be fair though if you eat fruit and vegtables you're only killing the babies.

I'm becoming a Watertarian.

[paddy_rice]

In some countries it's really difficult to be a vegetarian. Have any veggies ever been to France? Apparently they don't understand the concept and the best you can do is order a salad and pick the meat out.

Indeed.

Also, about the whole "Why don't we eat people?" thing: There is evidence to show that eating human flesh can cause us to go mad. I can't really remember what happens, but it's something about warped proteins attaching themselves to the brain. If someone knows more I'd be greatful.

Eating the meat of other animals can be pretty bad for your health too.

Anways, regardless of this, I think that the only things that we ought not to do are the things that damage society. If we started killing people and eating them the society would most likely fall down around us.

Why?

Killing and eating animals does nothing to damage society.

True.

[RuleBritannia]

I think an interesting question is; Why do people care about the well being of animals?

[rustyness]

PERSON A "Eating meat is okay because animals eat other animals!"
PERSON B "So would you say it is okay to eat humans seen as they eat other animals?"
PERSON A "Yeah, but humans have family that will miss them if you eat them so it's wrong"

My answer would be No. Animals eat other animals. In other words animals from other groups and not within the species.

I'm more interested in how it is immoral to eat meat?

Yes, I agree. I certainly think that eating less meat should be encouraged purely for environmental reasons and maybe for health reasons (from eating excessive amounts of meat), but I don't see how anyone can argue that it makes them more moral to eat meat. Why is it more moral? What is out obligation to be nice to other species? These morals exist purely as a perception to me! It may sound callous, but I think that there is no logical reason for us to be nice to chickens or cows, but we are nice to chickens or cows because of an intuition to be nice to other humans that has mis-fired.

[paddy_rice]

I think an interesting question is; Why do people care about the well being of animals?

What is out obligation to be nice to other species? These morals exist purely as a perception to me! It may sound callous, but I think that there is no logical reason for us to be nice to chickens or cows, but we are nice to chickens or cows because of an intuition to be nice to other humans that has mis-fired.

Why "be nice" to severely mentally disabled humans, then? Is that also a "misfiring" of intuition?

[RuleBritannia]

I think an interesting question is; Why do people care about the well being of animals?

What is out obligation to be nice to other species? These morals exist purely as a perception to me! It may sound callous, but I think that there is no logical reason for us to be nice to chickens or cows, but we are nice to chickens or cows because of an intuition to be nice to other humans that has mis-fired.

Why "be nice" to severely mentally disabled humans, then? Is that also a "misfiring" of intuition?

'Mentally disabled humans' are still humans so the misfiring is valid. However the misfiring does aply to other animals. But I think you took my question as a hostile point when it wasn't one. I was merly raising the question; Why do people care about the well being of animals? It is obvious from observation that people do, but why, what is the reason for it?

[paddy_rice]

'Mentally disabled humans' are still humans so the misfiring is valid.

Why is caring about humans normal, but caring about non-humans a "misfiring"?

[RuleBritannia]

'Mentally disabled humans' are still humans so the misfiring is valid.

Why is caring about humans normal, but caring about non-humans a "misfiring"?

No, caring about other humans is the misfiring.

[paddy_rice]

No, caring about other humans is the misfiring.

So, are you saying that caring about anyone but yourself is a misfiring?

[RuleBritannia]

No, caring about other humans is the misfiring.

So, are you saying that caring about anyone but yourself is a misfiring?

No, Dawkins says this, amazing thing is your profile says you've read The God Delusion.

[paddy_rice]

So, are you saying that caring about anyone but yourself is a misfiring?

No, Dawkins says this, amazing thing is your profile says you've read The God Delusion.

I don't understand your point. All I'm asking is that you clarify what constitutes a "misfiring" and what doesn't, that's all.

EDIT: Fixed quote.

[RuleBritannia]

I don't understand your point. All I'm asking is that you clarify what constitutes a "misfiring" and what doesn't, that's all.

The reason humans care about other humans (whom they've met) is because of a 'misfiring'. This misfiring comes from when we lived in small groups where we met the same people time and time again. The 'golden rule', which stems from this misfiring, creates a better, more stable, more pieceful society.

Caring about other animals serves no purpose, I conceded above that humans to care about other animals. My question was, Why (biologically) do we care? The misfiring cannot explain this because we don't and never have lived in societies with other animals.