The Hitch: Debating with theists

[hackenslash]

Well, the inclusion of the 10 commandments and the rest of the Mosaic law makes the suggestion that god is the arbiter of morality implicit.

As for the rest, Omniscience:

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place.

Omnipotence:

Interestingly, the only reference to omnipotence in the bible is in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, and is attributed to Satan, not god. Is Satan more powerful than god?

2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

[Goldenmane]

Well, the inclusion of the 10 commandments and the rest of the Mosaic law makes the suggestion that god is the arbiter of morality implicit.

Only in the sense of "I'm a big tough cunt, so you'd better do what I say or I'll make you fucking hurt, surely? It's still just a claim, and the only support provided amounts to said god behaving like a fucking cunt, which really isn't evidence at all for anything other than that he deserves a celestial kicking.

It's a short conversation, really.

God: Do what I say.
GMinge: Fucking why?
God: Because I decide what is right, and then tell you to do it.
GM: What about all those buggers over there?
G: Fucking ignore them. That's an order, soldier!
GM: Hang on a second, the only reason you've given for me obeying you are threats. In other words, not reason. That's the actions of a fucking coward. You can't actually explain anything, you have to threaten, insult, and destroy. And you know what? I think that the significant majority of what you claim as "right" is despicable, foul, and retarded. And I'm calling your fucking bluff. You're a completely ineffectual figment of human imagination, not the God you claim to be. Strike me down, if it is otherwise.

Nope, still here. no smiting in evidence.

As for the rest, Omniscience:

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place.

Omnipotence:

Interestingly, the only reference to omnipotence in the bible is in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, and is attributed to Satan, not god. Is Satan more powerful than god?

2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So... Yahweh is not only watching me poo, he's watching every step, every digestive process, along the way?

So why doesn't the cunt just explain to us shit like how to eat a balanced diet. Oh, yeah, I forgot. Eating shellfish is bad.

I don't recall any dictate that said "you'd really be doing well if you ate five veg and two fruits every day".

You know what, the bastard couldn't even give Adam (with a lifespan of 970 years, apparently) a decent education. At best, that's a sign of incompetence.

[Mister Agenda]

It doesn't take that much torture to make a person regret whatever course of action led them to the torture chamber. They can make you beg to trade them your children for your release. And human torturers are rank amateurs compared to what Jesus is supposed to have in mind for non-believers. Everyone gets to be a burning bush, forever on fire but never consumed.

Might doesn't make right, but it gets what it wants out of you. Defying the God of the Bible would be like defying a thug with a barrel pressed against the back of your head. You can fork over your money or you can die. Magnify that choice to infinity and you have Bible God, the ultimate Don. 'Nice sould you got there...it'd be a shame if something were to...happen to it.'

What amazes me is most of the people who claim to be believers can be so casual about it. They don't act like they've got eternal torture coming if they step out of line or pick the wrong denomination. They ought to be spending their lives desperately trying to please God hoping to avoid hell and hoping heaven is what it's cracked up to be. They talk about faith a lot, but most of them don't act any different from atheists, except for churchgoing. The jails and frathouses are full of people who believe. Something doesn't add up here.

[Ramonda]

What amazes me is most of the people who claim to be believers can be so casual about it. They don't act like they've got eternal torture coming if they step out of line or pick the wrong denomination. They ought to be spending their lives desperately trying to please God hoping to avoid hell and hoping heaven is what it's cracked up to be. They talk about faith a lot, but most of them don't act any different from atheists, except for churchgoing. The jails and frathouses are full of people who believe. Something doesn't add up here.

No, as a former traditional believer there was no desperation on my part because it is easy to be good under most circumstances There is no reason to be anything other than casual about it because even most atheists would say that except for not believing in god, they would also "make it to heaven" if it existed.

I think thinking such as yours is what fundamentalist theists who had bad parenting might worry about. But the theist who lives their talk but doesn't judge others has no reason to be desperate or fear.

[flush80]

Before you can state that science is not capable of analyzing this particular hypothesis, you have to state that hypothesis first.

Before I can say it, I have to say it? Ok, consider it said.

You can't state God is too big and vast to understand before even proposing a hypothesis that it even exists.

yeah god is too big and vast to understand -- except when he tells us to pray and keep slaves!--thats when we understand him word for word! -- a universe so vast and interesting and all he is concerned with is what the fuck we do and whether we worshiped him or not?!

I think religious people have a big fear of what scientists are getting closer and closer to revealing , that we are ALONE -- too bad -- let mommy hold your hand and face REALITY.

[Memories]

People here are acting as if God is just some old dude that killed a bunch of people in the past.

If the God of the Bible actually exists, that means He is also the Creator of everything, the ultimate judge of every individual, and the absolute source of all guidance and morality. And the decisions He has made, though they may seem flawed to us, his imperfect creation, are still the right decisions.

If it was proved that God existed, then I would get on my knees and pray every moment for the rest of my life. It's frickin' God we're talking about here. It's cute that you all *think* you would revolt and fight "him", but you might want to visit a therapist sometime soon just in case....

Its safe to say that atheism takes roots out of misunderstanding of what god is all about, reading posts like '' I would kill him'' really examplifies this hatred towards god, and saying he '' murders children'' are also statements derived out of ignorance. I have felt in this thread a certain frustration towards god to say the least.

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Its safe to say that atheism takes roots out of misunderstanding of what god is all about,

Oh, please do educate us. Never mind that there are as many "understandings of what god is all about" as there are believers. I'm sure yours is the right one.

reading posts like '' I would kill him'' really examplifies this hatred towards god, and saying he '' murders children'' are also statements derived out of ignorance.

Actually, since this is a discussion about Yahweh, they're derived out of exactly what the fuck the Bible says about him.

I have felt in this thread a certain frustration towards god to say the least.

I have zero frustration toward "god".

[Aca]

Its safe to say that atheism takes roots out of misunderstanding of what god is all about,

http://www.godchecker.com/

which one is it that we do not understand ?

can you start from the beginning. state what your god is and then we discuss if we did misunderstand something or, in case of naturetalk, if it is beyond science.

[Mister Agenda]

What amazes me is most of the people who claim to be believers can be so casual about it. They don't act like they've got eternal torture coming if they step out of line or pick the wrong denomination. They ought to be spending their lives desperately trying to please God hoping to avoid hell and hoping heaven is what it's cracked up to be. They talk about faith a lot, but most of them don't act any different from atheists, except for churchgoing. The jails and frathouses are full of people who believe. Something doesn't add up here.

No, as a former traditional believer there was no desperation on my part because it is easy to be good under most circumstances There is no reason to be anything other than casual about it because even most atheists would say that except for not believing in god, they would also "make it to heaven" if it existed.

I think thinking such as yours is what fundamentalist theists who had bad parenting might worry about. But the theist who lives their talk but doesn't judge others has no reason to be desperate or fear.

Not even that most of the world's population is condemned to an eternity of writhing, screaming agony if they don't get born again via the grace of Jesus?

OTH, I was raised Pentecostal.

[naturetalk]

yeah god is too big and vast to understand -- except when he tells us to pray and keep slaves!--thats when we understand him word for word!

Perhaps it's helpful to keep in mind that theism has involved billions of people over thousands of years. Lots of variety in the theist world, just like there is among atheists.

I think religious people have a big fear of what scientists are getting closer and closer to revealing , that we are ALONE -- too bad -- let mommy hold your hand and face REALITY.

Um, apologies, but science is no where near revealing anything of the kind. If you wish to face reality, face the fact that none of us know, one way or the other.

[Ramonda]

What amazes me is most of the people who claim to be believers can be so casual about it. They don't act like they've got eternal torture coming if they step out of line or pick the wrong denomination. They ought to be spending their lives desperately trying to please God hoping to avoid hell and hoping heaven is what it's cracked up to be. They talk about faith a lot, but most of them don't act any different from atheists, except for churchgoing. The jails and frathouses are full of people who believe. Something doesn't add up here.

No, as a former traditional believer there was no desperation on my part because it is easy to be good under most circumstances There is no reason to be anything other than casual about it because even most atheists would say that except for not believing in god, they would also "make it to heaven" if it existed.

I think thinking such as yours is what fundamentalist theists who had bad parenting might worry about. But the theist who lives their talk but doesn't judge others has no reason to be desperate or fear.

Not even that most of the world's population is condemned to an eternity of writhing, screaming agony if they don't get born again via the grace of Jesus?

OTH, I was raised Pentecostal.

I grew up Catholic and the born again wasn't part of it, grace was definitely a big part and mercy and finally only god knows who makes it so why worry Sure I worried about my meat eating on Friday dad several times but the mind has too many things to think of and I didn't dwell on it.

Since hell wasn't part of every sermon then usually the biggest deal going on was immediate matters not future ones

[Ramonda]

yeah god is too big and vast to understand -- except when he tells us to pray and keep slaves!--thats when we understand him word for word!

Perhaps it's helpful to keep in mind that theism has involved billions of people over thousands of years. Lots of variety in the theist world, just like there is among atheists.

I think religious people have a big fear of what scientists are getting closer and closer to revealing , that we are ALONE -- too bad -- let mommy hold your hand and face REALITY.

Um, apologies, but science is no where near revealing anything of the kind. If you wish to face reality, face the fact that none of us know, one way or the other.

I'm big on science, big on god. I think science of today has a great chance of revealing that there is a god. It might not be next month but could be in decades. Who knows? And it could be never of course. I don't think it is going to prove there is a god of the Judeo Christian version or any particular version. And I don't think it is going to solve the question of intelligent design. I think that there will be breakthroughs in the spiritual thinking realm that will cause some religious people to fear but I don't agree that it has to be that there is no god.

[RichardPrins]

I'm big on science, big on god.

And big on woo.

I think science of today has a great chance of revealing that there is a god.

Ok. Never mind that it isn't the job of science, since it's about nature (and excludes supernatural bunkum).

It might not be next month but could be in decades. Who knows? And it could be never of course.

Ok. Well, you got all angles covered.

I don't think it is going to prove there is a god of the Judeo Christian version or any particular version.

Then how to recognize that what is revealed is actually a god?

(...) I think that there will be breakthroughs in the spiritual thinking realm that will cause some religious people to fear but I don't agree that it has to be that there is no god.

The 'spiritual thinking realm'? Like your favourite woo, The Secret?

[naturetalk]

The word woo is woo, and now I'm guilty too.

[RichardPrins]

The word woo is woo, and now I'm guilty too.

It's been around for a while, and fits like a glove. And yes, you might be.

[life]

I've never quite understood why some people tout Hitchens as some kind of major thinker. I think that RD has done some brilliant work, and his record speaks for itself. On the other hand, I think that Hitchens is an arrogant opportunist who is riding on the coattails of others, and he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Dawkins. And, Hitchens is even more obnoxious when he's had too much to drink...something that seems to happen a lot.

Fair enough but I think his aggressive style is just part of the show, and a quite effective one I might add.
Personally, I love to hear him speak or read him write, I envy his sophisticated sarcasm just to the extend where he ever so often crushes down on his opponent without them realising the defeat. I think his style is flawless in terms of reflecting the stupidity religion is echoing. He might have less of an impact than Dawkins and the likes but that's probably due to the fact that Dawkins makes his arguments much more accessible to the public.

In fact, I can't even understand why you downplay his work as opportunistic with just 4 or 5 distinguished public figures debating religion at all. Shouldn't we be grateful we have such a brilliant speaker on our side?

By the way, as for the arrogance...just google some personal interviews with him and you'll read that it is his willful intent to sound like he does.

[orpheus]

(Uncle Orph loves a good debate.)

[Dr. Robert Klass]

life, First of all, welcome to RDF! I have no doubt that Hitchens has willful intent to act like an arrogant jerk, and he succeeds at that. However, to a very large extent, a person or group will be known from how they act, what they do, how they treat others, etc. I'd compare Hitchens to somebody like Rush Limbaugh. Even if I happened to be a conservative Republican, I would shudder even time a pill-popping windbag like Limbaugh supposedly spoke for my viewpoints.

By the way, when you say "our side," I am not one of the atheists on RDF; I'm one of the theists, but I happen to think that atheist rhetoric is absolutely correct about many things, including the undeniable fact that people, claiming to act in the name of God, have done a lot of horrible things to screw things up.

[life]

life, First of all, welcome to RDF!

[snip]

By the way, when you say "our side," I am not one of the atheists on RDF; I'm one of the theists, but I happen to think that atheist rhetoric is absolutely correct about many things, including the undeniable fact that people, claiming to act in the name of God, have done a lot of horrible things to screw things up.

Thanks for the welcome and apologies for mistaking you to be on "our side"
I guess I was somewhat biased to assume that a Dr., a member with 1k+ posts having read the God Delusion wouldn't be a theist anymore

But hey, life is full of surprises! (no pun intended)

[Luis Dias]

I'd compare Hitchens to somebody like Rush Limbaugh.

I wouldn't. I rate Hitchens top class. Limbaugh is just a bullshit regurgitating machine.

[naturetalk]

I have no doubt that Hitchens has willful intent to act like an arrogant jerk, and he succeeds at that.

It's good show business. I think Hitchens is sincere about his views, but he also seems a realist about what is motivating most of these kind of conversations. And that is a search for entertainment, not a sincere inquiry. Hitchens is faithfully doing the job he has been hired to do, build an audience that can be sold stuff.

However, to a very large extent, a person or group will be known from how they act, what they do, how they treat others, etc. I'd compare Hitchens to somebody like Rush Limbaugh. Even if I happened to be a conservative Republican, I would shudder even time a pill-popping windbag like Limbaugh supposedly spoke for my viewpoints.

Hitchens seems to offer much more to the conversation than Limbaugh, but I agree, his personality reinforces every ignorant negative stereotype of atheism. A thoroughly charming person with the same relentless intellect would serve the cause better. But, that said, all any of us can do is what we can do. Hitchens is good at being Hitchens.

[naturetalk]

In fairness to Hitchens...

I recently heard a radio interview that featured both Hitchens and one of his theist debating partners. Hitchens was entirely calm, reasonable and polite throughout the interview as was his partner. None of the fire and brimstone scorn and ridicule stuff.

[Ramonda]

I'm big on science, big on god.

And big on woo.

I think science of today has a great chance of revealing that there is a god.

Ok. Never mind that it isn't the job of science, since it's about nature (and excludes supernatural bunkum).

It might not be next month but could be in decades. Who knows? And it could be never of course.

Ok. Well, you got all angles covered.

I don't think it is going to prove there is a god of the Judeo Christian version or any particular version.

Then how to recognize that what is revealed is actually a god?

(...) I think that there will be breakthroughs in the spiritual thinking realm that will cause some religious people to fear but I don't agree that it has to be that there is no god.

The 'spiritual thinking realm'? Like your favourite woo, The Secret?

Hmmm, my favorite is the Secret? You just succeeded in practicing what you call woo because you are stuck in a statement that has no evidence. Anybody who has read my statements in that thread knows my purpose in that thread was not because I like the Secret. I have not read the book, I have the DVD and have maybe watched 10 minutes.

I think it is safe to say that you don't know me and have labeled me according to your cognitive dissonance and anything I would say won't make a dent in your opinion because you see me as woo and that makes your brain freeze.

That you can't get outside of a Judeo Christian god box is also evident by your question above where you equate god with Judeo Christian. God is a description, not Judeo Christian.

I can see why you couldn't fathom a possibility of discovering god but still being rational. If god was like the Judeo Christian one in its' entirety I'd be a 7 atheist.

I'm not big on everything that is categorized as woo. I am interested in what every human being might think or might think they have experienced.

I am very big on god and very big on science whether you can't comprehend the compatibility doesn't make you right or me wrong. You are assuming that god is supernatural by your words above whereas I am not.

[Dr. Robert Klass]

Ramonda, Hi! I believe we met about a year ago on the "Extreme Niceness @ Love" thread. I am also big on God and big on science, and I don't see where there has to be any conflict between the two. In my life and work, I have checked out a lot of woo, and one of the things that some of the so-called rational and logical people on this forum don't like to talk about is that some woo works extremely well for some people. From what I can tell, well-constructed woo contains a lot of truth, let's say 98%, and the woo meister can slip in the other 2% that he's selling. I'm fluent enough in the language of woo that, most of the time, I can separate the good stuff...and even tell where it came from...from the BS.

Don't let the snide, sarcastic types get to you! Best wishes!

[Ramonda]

Ramonda, Hi! I believe we met about a year ago on the "Extreme Niceness @ Love" thread. I am also big on God and big on science, and I don't see where there has to be any conflict between the two. In my life and work, I have checked out a lot of woo, and one of the things that some of the so-called rational and logical people on this forum don't like to talk about is that some woo works extremely well for some people. From what I can tell, well-constructed woo contains a lot of truth, let's say 98%, and the woo meister can slip in the other 2% that he's selling. I'm fluent enough in the language of woo that, most of the time, I can separate the good stuff...and even tell where it came from...from the BS.

Don't let the snide, sarcastic types get to you! Best wishes!

Ok, that's where you and I met I knew you were familiar but didn't connect the thread Thanks for reminding me and giving me support. Yes, we can indeed know which woo makes more sense than others

I don't mind Richard. He or she started the Secret thread,
viewtopic.php?p=32158#p32158
with the intent of having a sneer thread years ago and I came in and supported LOA as existing long before the Secret and his/her inability to look at facts in that issue has him/her remembering me as loving the book or DVD or whatever she or he has conjured up The only thing that blew me in bringing it here is that it was a discussion that took place 3 years ago and is seemingly off topic.

But then maybe it isn't. Maybe he or she or even Hitchens believes that debating with theists is just remembering only one thing about them and then forever condemning them as unworthy of liking or loving science? So if he or she wants to discuss something with me in this thread other than the Secret (we can always resurrect that thread if that is what Richard wants) then I am game.

What say you Richard? Care to get on topic?