God is just the beginning

[Philosopher Jagger]

Before I get to the meat of this topic, let me say a few words about myself first.

Some 5 or so years ago a question suddenly hit me: is there a god or is there not?
I wasn't brought up religiously, but I felt that the god question had potentially important consequences on my life. So I started investigating. Of course I began by reading the proponents of the god question, mostly arguments from design, kalaam, etc.
And I found it rather obvious from the get go, that they weren't making too much sense. But in any case, this gave me a strong incentive to learn more about philosophy, science and logic. Soon, I considered myself an educated agnostic.

But it didn't take long until I started to realize that the arguments for god repeated themself. Only a handful of arguments were constantly being repackaged, reused and presented as evidence even though they have been logically and empirically shown to be wrong over and over again, for many hundred years in some cases. By that time, I already encountered every argument and every last one of their variations - multiple times. I realized that it was now impossible for me to believe in god, so I became an atheist, perhaps a 6.9 of 7 like Richard Dawkins himself.

I was quite confident in my logic and my arguments, as well as my knowledge of science and philosophy.
Now, it should have been easy to convince believers, right? Unfortunately not... No matter how well presented an argument, believers will still find a way to escape or, if not, just repeat their same old argument, completely disregarding my counter-arguments.
But I'm sure you know precisely what I mean.

But the peculiar thing is that these people aren't stupid. To the contrary, they are often not only well-read and articulate, but also know how not to fall for the same fallacies that they are using in other instances. This lead me to realize that it's not reason that lead them to their belief, but psychological mechanisms, which are innate in humans and in the nature of intelligent life itself. And we all are subject to them. In other words, humans are predisposed for believing into gods.

When I realized all that, I understood that being a 6.9 of 7 was kind of... weak. After all, nobody would say that they are 99% certain that 2 + 2 equals 4. No, there's nothing wrong with being 100% certain, while being open-minded at the same time.

To cut to the core, I think it's time to say "god is disproved".
Has been for hundreds of years actually. Forget that "you can't disprove a negative"-nonsense. We have perfectly workable definitions of god which can easily be disproved.

Until the advanced atheists start acting truly confidently (that is NOT the same as dogmatic), nobody will take us serious and theistic arguments will forever continue repeating their cycle of rebirth.
I understand that it is important to be open to all possibilities, to be open to being wrong. But you can still be that and at the same time be confident that what you believe is true.

I'm enormously grateful to the god question, because it lead me to develop a (hopefully) clear worldview, most of you probably feel similarly. We have found extremely useful tools and skills in understanding reality and differentiating truths from falsehoods.
But as far as I can see, we don't make much use of them. I'm a bit disappointed with the stagnation I see in atheist forums. Usually, the same old topics are being debated ad nauseum.

Now, this isn't necessarily criticism, just some food for thought. Perhaps we should be rethinking our strategy. We let ourself be caught up in superficially intellectual arguments much too quickly and fail at getting to the root causes; the personal aspect, the rationality behind irrational behaviour and belief. The things that we aren't too comfortable to discuss.

Well, if you have read this far you probably have a lot of time on your hands... XD
So especially for you, I have prepared a few topics that we are usually... shy from discussing. These things are in my opinion all suited to go into the metaphysical trash bin. They are either being generally misused, are poisonous to humanity and/ or simply false:

gender equality
fear of death
laws against prostitution & drugs
foreign aid
welfare
politics
elections
incarceration
military
taxes
governments
family

I would have included religion & church but I think it's unnecessary here...
Now, of course you may disagree that many of these things are in any way negative. Depending on your beliefs you may find them even to be moral and necessary.
But that's quite fine, all I would like to do is start a discussion with topics that are really important. Please share your thoughts and feelings honestly. I especially want to encourage you to be blunt. If you feel that I'm full of shit, don't hesitate to tell me!
Also, you are free to toss in other topics that you think should go into the metaphysical trash bin. There is quite a lot.

That, in my opinion, is the next logical step in the evolution of atheism. There is no reason to stop with god. Let's start disproving things that aren't already dead.

[bennie]

A lot of people need their woo, which is fine as long as they keep it to themselves. Unfortunately they don't, hence this site and these threads. In my view cutting these issues off at the knees is an admirable ideal but you'd put the kybosh on a lot of creativity.

[Answer]

I like your style, Jagger, and I think we have some things in common.

To cut to the core, I think it's time to say "god is disproved".
Has been for hundreds of years actually. Forget that "you can't disprove a negative"-nonsense. We have perfectly workable definitions of god which can easily be disproved.

That's how I honestly feel. The definition keeps on changing whenever we disprove one, and so it's fair to say that the original God of the Bible and other religious books has been disproved. However, there will always be a contemporary or non-fanatical group of people who want to live a Christian life and belief in Jesus Christ and call themselves real Christians, distancing themselves from those "God Hates Fags" and holier-than-thou-prophets who make themselves a lot of money and get a lot of attention here in America.

The real problem is just like you said:

But the peculiar thing is that these people aren't stupid. To the contrary, they are often not only well-read and articulate, but also know how not to fall for the same fallacies that they are using in other instances. This lead me to realize that it's not reason that lead them to their belief, but psychological mechanisms, which are innate in humans and in the nature of intelligent life itself. And we all are subject to them. In other words, humans are predisposed for believing into gods.

They're not stupid, and they don't feel irrational. They see it as a personal relationship with someone they cannot see, but that they rely on, and when things go well, the relationship is strengthened. When things don't go well, the relationship is also strengthened and the person often feels responsible in some way, as if he or she was not doing enough in the relationship to make things go right. That can lead to unnecessary suffering and a disability to understand reality.

I've been down that road to an extent. It was mostly denial that I felt, because I completely denied the God that other people believed in (not in a mean way, or to say it wasn't real, but that it wasn't right for me, because Jesus was my personal friend, unlike the Jesus' that others would worship).

It's a scary thing, but I think you're right.
God is essentially dead, but a lot of people are still beating that horse.

I think that other things in society could be questioned too. I've been in numerous family arguments because I told them straight out that they weren't what I considered family. I don't like obligations, and I don't like the people I grew up with. They treated me badly, and if I weren't related to them we wouldn't be friends. But I did consider the people I really liked to be family, and that pissed off some people who felt that ,"Blood is thicker than water."

That's just one of many things I can think of, I'm sure others have more pressing matters to discuss, and if atheists could learn to be herded (lol, just kidding) then we might be able to agree better on what is most important to us. Yes, the belief in God is annoying and over rated, but what about it do we specifically want to change?

[Philosopher Jagger]

A lot of people need their woo, which is fine as long as they keep it to themselves. Unfortunately they don't, hence this site and these threads. In my view cutting these issues off at the knees is an admirable ideal but you'd put the kybosh on a lot of creativity.

That's well put, but please allow me to disagree. "Woo" isn't a source for creativity, it's a takeover of identity. The people who have ideas about god and the supernatural that aren't derived from some source or group-thought are a very rare breed. Believers are, metaphorically speaking (but sometimes quite literary), people of one book. And because of that, in my view, all irrational belief is a strong limiter of creative thought. I don't think it's wise to accept it just for it's entertainment value. But on the other hand, I don't think there's anything wrong with debating the god idea. I just don't think we should expect any real progress, because that will only lead to frustration.

They see it as a personal relationship with someone they cannot see, but that they rely on, and when things go well, the relationship is strengthened. When things don't go well, the relationship is also strengthened and the person often feels responsible in some way, as if he or she was not doing enough in the relationship to make things go right. That can lead to unnecessary suffering and a disability to understand reality.

Yes, that's also how I felt for a while. I didn't believe in jesus, but it felt like I had a relationship with something greater than myself, which I could ask for things that I had no control over. I think it's quite a natural belief.
But what I would like to do is go even deeper and try to understand what leads to such beliefs... Well, ultimately, whatever road you go it always takes you to one thing, the family. Now, sure, sometimes it's indoctrination that is at fault. But there are many flavors of it and it's not as simple a psychological issue as it sounds. I think it could be worthwhile trying to investigate this issue more intensely.

But aside from that, I think that it's our complete perception of the nature of the family and parenting that is a great problem. Parents make themself into gods, giving commands without any real explanations. They don't listen, they just rule supreme, if necessary even with force or threats. And worst of all, there is no realistic escape for children.

So, because the relationship between children and parents more often than not isn't any kind of mutually productive and pleasant relationship at all, this leads to people desiring the real deal. So they invent they're own ultimate authority, one that actually listens to them and is on their side. Jesus is born of this necessity. And all other kinds of gods and superheroes, too, by the way.

But another problem is that we are all indoctrinated into believing in the virtue of family. Which of course doesn't exist. And that leads us into avoiding the real cause. Discussing god is just talking about a symptom. It's like trying to heal a cancer by putting a bandaid onto it.

That's why I think we should spend more time debunking the myth of the family, because behind all the fancy religious stories, behind gods and aliens, behind all-powerful states and all other destructive ideas lies this little, seemingly harmless thing called the family, that is the root of all evil... and that I say without a question mark at the end XD .

So when you say that others may have more pressing matters to discuss, I would of course disagree.
But I don't mind if we start off slowly with one of the simpler issue...
Thank you for these excellent comments so far.

[Lucretia]

I'm not sure any of those issues need to be done away with. No matter what the state of the world is, a vast sum of the population will always suffer from impropriety. Yet as a product of impropriety we have humor, and sometimes beauty.

[mindyourmind]

Woo will eventually become an eccentric, private little pastime, like stamp collecting or macrame It will never disappear completely.

And then, we'll have a new Messiah, a new God, a new Big True Answer, and it will start all over again. Ask Zeus.

[Answer]

But aside from that, I think that it's our complete perception of the nature of the family and parenting that is a great problem. Parents make themself into gods, giving commands without any real explanations. They don't listen, they just rule supreme, if necessary even with force or threats. And worst of all, there is no realistic escape for children.

So, because the relationship between children and parents more often than not isn't any kind of mutually productive and pleasant relationship at all, this leads to people desiring the real deal. So they invent they're own ultimate authority, one that actually listens to them and is on their side. Jesus is born of this necessity. And all other kinds of gods and superheroes, too, by the way.

But another problem is that we are all indoctrinated into believing in the virtue of family. Which of course doesn't exist. And that leads us into avoiding the real cause. Discussing god is just talking about a symptom. It's like trying to heal a cancer by putting a bandaid onto it.

That's why I think we should spend more time debunking the myth of the family, because behind all the fancy religious stories, behind gods and aliens, behind all-powerful states and all other destructive ideas lies this little, seemingly harmless thing called the family, that is the root of all evil... and that I say without a question mark at the end XD .

I highly agree. I only recently turned 18 and before that the best answer I could get from my parents was "because I said so." Despite how much you know or how wise you are, a lot of parents, including mine, will exert some sort of irrational strength or force over you as a child. When questioned about rules that don't make sense, the parents often assume a sort of god-like nature. They raise up, as if offended, and wonder how you could possibly be so rude as to even ask a question about what they've told you to do. If something will be beneficial to me, I would like to know how! What's so wrong about that? Instead, like many of the Biblical parables and other stories, "God" (read=parents) often crush their underlings with their "advice" and if not taken, they are punished. If taken, the underling is often left to understand how it was beneficial on their own, also read, "You'll understand when you're older."

To me, "family" is an annoying obligation. My real family consists of my friends and those who I strongly care about. My own children and my spouse would be considered my family, as well as any future heirs or predecessors whom I find to be a productive member of society and be close enough to. The family that I have right now is nothing like me and has not done much over the years to try and improve themselves. Essentially, a family is an over-rated clan of sorts, people who stick together and fight for one another and believe the same way and have obligations to one another. I think that's mostly wrong. I think family should be more like friendship, which would encourage treating others properly and such. Not all families are as dysfunctional as mine, but usually those are the bland ones that are perfectly okay with doing everything together and wearing matching pajamas and going to church every Sunday or Saturday and eating together for every meal and going on family vacations together and feeding the dog together etc. etc. etc. just like TV and society showed back in the 50's and 60's and some of the 70's.

[levequeiroq]

I was quite confident in my logic and my arguments, as well as my knowledge of science and philosophy.
Now, it should have been easy to convince believers, right? Unfortunately not... No matter how well presented an argument, believers will still find a way to escape or, if not, just repeat their same old argument, completely disregarding my counter-arguments.
But I'm sure you know precisely what I mean.

Welcome to our world.
It is fascinating how people will just refuse to take even a sneaky peek at the evidence before dismissing it.
I was given a book called 'in 6 days' (all about 'supposed' scientists that believe in the 6 day creation idea) by the pastor at our local church, i dutifully read it. Yet when i proposed he read the brilliant 'a short history of everything' by bill bryson about REAL science explained in an extremely user friendly way, he declined. (this was during a 'christianity explored' course which helped push me from an agnostic to atheist )

[Daan]

They are either being generally misused, are poisonous to humanity and/ or simply false:

gender equality
fear of death
laws against prostitution & drugs
foreign aid
welfare
politics
elections
incarceration
military
taxes
governments
family

All the things you mention are part of a community of humans. You don't mention getting done with:
legs
arms
feet
kidneys

What kind of world or society would you want? Is it a radical utopia or one in which people don't communicate with each other anymore?

[Answer]

They are either being generally misused, are poisonous to humanity and/ or simply false:

gender equality
fear of death
laws against prostitution & drugs
foreign aid
welfare
politics
elections
incarceration
military
taxes
governments
family

All the things you mention are part of a community of humans. You don't mention getting done with:
legs
arms
feet
kidneys

What kind of world or society would you want? Is it a radical utopia or one in which people don't communicate with each other anymore?

I don't think he means getting rid of them, I think he means dismissing a lot of myths and weird ideas and obligations that surround them. I don't think the OP means getting rid of family or taxes or the military or governments, but he means reinventing the virtues and ideas and beliefs that people have when it comes to those somewhat controversial subjects.