Carbon 14 and the Biblical Timescale for Planet Earth

[afdave1]

CARBON 14 AND THE BIBLICAL TIMESCALE FOR PLANET EARTH

[EDIT: Added some explanations] X-axis is the time scale. This time scale puts Creation at 7000 YBP (Year 0 above), and the Flood of Noah at 5000 YBP (Year 2000 above). Y-axis is kgC14 for the C14 inventory curves, but the Ratio and Biomass curves have exaggerated scales to enhance clarity. C14 is assumed to be ZERO at Creation because C14 would not have been forming until cosmic rays began interacting with the atmosphere. This graph is very similar to Brown's Figure 3, but it shows much more so as to hopefully give you a complete picture. Brown's Figure 3 basically "zooms in" on my graph for the approximate years 1800-4000.

MEASURED DATA: Measured data includes the two data points on the C14 Inventory curves at Year=7000, i.e. Present (see Brown's paper), the approximate amount of sequestered carbon as indicated by the yellow graph, some pre-Flood data points plus the Year=7000 data points on the pMC curve, and a measured rate of 10.2 kg/yr of C14 production.

CALCULATED DATA: The two Inventory curves are simple decay curves and are calculated by Brown's equations. The pMC curve is inferred from pre-Flood and modern data points, plus the fact of an maximum of a 375 year time constant for the Upper Biosphere.

Mike PSS, A chemical engineer and a non-YEC, and I, an electrical engineer and YEC, have been discussing the following paper by Dr. Robert Brown of the Geoscience Research Institute (GRISDA) ...

http://www.grisda.org/origins/21066.htm

Mike says that while Dr. Brown's Total Carbon Inventory curve is correct, his C14/C ratio curve is not (Aqua curve above). Mike says that Brown's model does not take into account mass balance between the various carbon reservoirs. See this link http://www.nd.edu/~enviro/pdf/Carbon_Cycle.pdf for a simplified explanation and model of carbon reservoirs, fluxes and balancing by a Chemical Engineering Prof at Notre Dame. There is one error in the paper ... Equation 6 should read Fsd=0.045*Ms. (Confirmed by the author on 5/2/07)

Mike is not correct as I hope my Composite Chart above makes clear. While Mike is correct that carbon is constantly circulating between reservoirs, he is not correct when he faults Brown for using a first order decay equation for modeling the increase in C14 ratio at the time of the Flood. [EDIT: added explanation] At the time of the Flood, a large amount of biomass was sequestered, but C14 production did not change radically. Therefore, the atmospheric ratio would have quickly increased, followed by a not-quite-so-quick increase in the entire Upper Biosphere. It would not experience the quick increase indefinitely, however, because of the coupling of the UB to the other reservoirs, or "boxes." The various "boxes"--the atmosphere, vegetation, the ocean, etc. all become well mixed (uniform C14 ratios) over time, but there is a delay. It is not instant mixing, thus the 3 different time constants specified in the Hesshaimer paper. Approximately 3 time constants after the Flood, the UB would simply resume the normal rate of increase being experienced by the entire planet as the equilibrium number of 80-90,000 kgC14 is reached (~10,000 kg for the UB). I think one thing that may be confusing Mike is the scale of Brown's graphs, which focus on the short interval of time surrounding the Flood. Brown gets his 375 year mean life figure from Hesshaimer et al (1994) ...

Radiocarbon evidence for a smaller oceanic carbon dioxide sink than previously believed

Nature 370, 201 - 203 (21 July 1994); doi:10.1038/370201a0

VagoHesshaimer*, MartinHeimann†&IngeborgLevin**Institut für Umweltphysik, University of Heidelberg, Im Neuenheimer Feld 366, D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany†Max-Planck-lnstitut für Meterologie, Bundesstrasse 55, D-20146 Hamburg, Germany
p. 201
The model biosphere is divided into three boxes where the input carbon is decomposed exponentially with an e-folding constant given by the turnover time T. Box 1 has a mass of 105 Gt-C, T=3 yrs, and accounts for roots, fine twigs, and leaves. Box 2 has a mass of 675 Gt-C, T=27 yrs, and represents big roots, stems and branches. Boxes 1 and 2 couple directly to the troposphere, and the sum of their input fluxes, determining the net primary productivity, is set to 60 Gt-C/yr. Box 3, the 'old carbon reservoir' has a mass of 1420 Gt-C and T=375 years. Box 3 contains the slowly decomposting material of boxes 1 and 2, gets its carbon input equally distributed from these boxes, and is needed to account for the low Delta-14C values measured in soil organic carbon.

My chart above shows a period of 30,000 years, which is the length of time necessary for equilibrium to be completely achieved. Libby, the discoverer of the C14 dating method knew this and he also knew that the world inventory had not reached equilibrium. This was troubling to him because of his belief in Deep Time.

Brown and others at GRISDA have been studying Carbon 14 since 1974. Brown's 1979 paper on C-14 http://www.grisda.org/origins/06030.htm provides the sources which give the amount of sequestered carbon, which YECs interpret as being laid down at the time of the Flood.

Some here have suggested that Brown has somehow discarded some of his YEC ideas. Not to my knowledge. I have spoken with him on the phone and I am in communication with him via e-mail. He recently updated one his books (2005) and confirmed his work on C14 there, plus gave additional confirmations of his work, such as the recent finding (2005) by the RATE Group of 0.24 pMC of Carbon 14 in coal which should be carbon 14 dead according to Deep Time theories. Brown is ready to defend his work on a conference call if need be. In spite of the fact that he is 92 years old, he is sharp as a tack.

Brown's work shows that observed C14 production rates (~10 kg/yr), our knowledge of sequestered carbon, and the low C14 content of coal beds and other fossil material likely buried during the Flood, and other factors, all combine powerfully to vindicate the Historical Account of the Great Flood of Noah in the Book of Genesis.

I welcome your questions and comments.

**********************************
SOME OF MY PREVIOUS POSTS ON THIS TOPIC
AFD Explains Brown's Paper
Brown's Equations Explained

[Occam's Aftershave]

Oh jeez...somebody's been busy photoshopping up fake data again!

For the 150,000th time Dave, it doesn't matter what you desperately *WISH* the historical C14/C12 ratio to be. The simple fact of the matter is that we have EMPIRICAL DATA that shows the ACTUAL historical ratio, and it DOESN'T MATCH YOUR FAKED DATA FANTASY AT ALL.



Dave, look again at the EMPIRICALLY MEASURED C14/C12 RATIO CALIBRATION CURVES, and explain how the REAL WORLD DATA fits your little made-up bogus scenario.

We're trying to be nice here Dave since you've got mental 'issues', but when you insist on continually being as stupid as a bag of doorknobs IT'S DAMN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE.

[obscured by clouds]

as stupid as a bag of doorknobs IT'S DAMN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE.

You were ok till this point, this is a warning.

[argystokes]

What are the axes?

[JOZeldenrust]

CARBON 14 AND THE BIBLICAL TIMESCALE FOR PLANET EARTH

This time scale puts Creation at 7000 YBP (Year 0 above), and the Flood of Noah at 5000 YBP (Year 2000 above). C14 inventory curves are on the same scale, but the Ratio and Biomass curves have exaggerated scales to enhance clarity.

Mike PSS, A chemical engineer and a non-YEC, and I, an electrical engineer and YEC, have been discussing the following paper by Dr. Robert Brown of the Geoscience Research Institute (GRISDA) ...

http://www.grisda.org/origins/21066.htm

Mike says that while Dr. Brown's Total Carbon Inventory curve is correct, his C14/C ratio curve is not (Aqua curve above). Mike says that Brown's model does not take into account mass balance between the various carbon reservoirs. See this link http://www.nd.edu/~enviro/pdf/Carbon_Cycle.pdf for a simplified explanation and model of carbon reservoirs, fluxes and balancing by a Chemical Engineering Prof at Notre Dame. There is one error in the paper ... Equation 6 should read Fsd=0.045*Ms. (Confirmed by the author on 5/2/07)

Mike is not correct as I hope my Composite Chart above makes clear. While Mike is correct that carbon is constantly circulating between reservoirs, he is not correct when he faults Brown for using a first order decay equation for modeling the increase in C14 ratio at the time of the Flood. I think one thing that may be confusing Mike is the scale of Brown's graphs, which focus on the short interval of time surrounding the Flood. Brown gets his 375 year mean life figure from Hesshaimer et al (1994) ...

Radiocarbon evidence for a smaller oceanic carbon dioxide sink than previously believed

Nature 370, 201 - 203 (21 July 1994); doi:10.1038/370201a0

VagoHesshaimer*, MartinHeimann†&IngeborgLevin**Institut für Umweltphysik, University of Heidelberg, Im Neuenheimer Feld 366, D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany†Max-Planck-lnstitut für Meterologie, Bundesstrasse 55, D-20146 Hamburg, Germany
p. 201
The model biosphere is divided into three boxes where the input carbon is decomposed exponentially with an e-folding constant given by the turnover time T. Box 1 has a mass of 105 Gt-C, T=3 yrs, and accounts for roots, fine twigs, and leaves. Box 2 has a mass of 675 Gt-C, T=27 yrs, and represents big roots, stems and branches. Boxes 1 and 2 couple directly to the troposphere, and the sum of their input fluxes, determining the net primary productivity, is set to 60 Gt-C/yr. Box 3, the 'old carbon reservoir' has a mass of 1420 Gt-C and T=375 years. Box 3 contains the slowly decomposting material of boxes 1 and 2, gets its carbon input equally distributed from these boxes, and is needed to account for the low Delta-14C values measured in soil organic carbon.

My chart above show a period of 30,000 years, which is the length of time necessary for equilibrium to be completely achieved. Libby, the discoverer of the C14 dating method knew this and he also knew that the world inventory had not reached equilibrium. This was troubling to him because of his belief in Deep Time.

Brown and others at GRISDA have been studying Carbon 14 since 1974. Brown's 1979 paper on C-14 http://www.grisda.org/origins/06030.htm provides the sources which give the amount of sequestered carbon, which YECs interpret as being laid down at the time of the Flood.

Some here have suggested that Brown has somehow discarded some of his YEC ideas. Not to my knowledge. I have spoken with him on the phone and I am in communication with him via e-mail. He recently updated one his books (2005) and confirmed his work on C14 there, plus gave additional confirmations of his work, such as the recent finding (2005) by the RATE Group of 0.24 pMC of Carbon 14 in coal which should be carbon 14 dead according to Deep Time theories. Brown is ready to defend his work on a conference call if need be. In spite of the fact that he is 92 years old, he is sharp as a tack.

Brown's work shows that observed C14 production rates (~10 kg/yr), our knowledge of sequestered carbon, and the low C14 content of coal beds and other fossil material likely buried during the Flood, and other factors, all combine powerfully to vindicate the Historical Account of the Great Flood of Noah in the Book of Genesis.

I welcome your questions and comments.

**********************************
SOME OF MY PREVIOUS POSTS ON THIS TOPIC
AFD Explains Brown's Paper
Brown's Equations Explained

Dave, you have been busy. With something involving spreadsheets and graphs no less. One might almost think you're being sciency.

I do have a question for you regarding your model of the development of [sup]14[/sup]C ratios in the upper biosphere.

Using your model, what is the upper boundary for the possible ratio of [sup]14[/sup]C/Carbon 250 years after the end of the flood?

Thanks.

Edited spelling and emphasis

[Steve55]

What are the axes?

They were the tools they used to cut down trees to build the Ark. This was the beginning of the reduction in biomass.

[Helmet]

Better get that conference call happenin' dave!

[Occam's Aftershave]

Dave, how do you justify assuming the total C14 in the world to be ZERO at 7000 YBP?

How much C14 was contained in the Ural mountains, which even ICR says are 1-5 million years old?

Dave, is 1 million years ago older or younger that 7000 years ago? I forget.

Or best of all - why should anyone care about your pretty colored little graph made up from completely fabricated data points that has no connection whatsoever with empirically measured reality?

[Dutch_labrat]

Hi Dave,

A simple question. I work in a plant that makes medicines for the American market. I seriously hope you would never have to use any of those, as they are for nasty inflictions, but you never know. Remember, Job was a righteous man.

Now when we prepare a shipment to be sent your way do you want us to:

1. Test the product on properties like purity, activity, identity or safety with tests and assays that were properly validated against other tests and method.

2. Pray that it will be alright.

Bonus question: What do you think the American FDA prefers?

[Inferno]

All this proves is that God is one cruel son of a b****. If he hated what humans had become so much, why not let a disease strike through them. Why destroy the innocent animals, birds, insects, and cute little fishes (not to mention all those cool dinosaurs!).