Horse intelligence (or lack of it?)

[InYourFaceNewYorker]

I was wondering about the intelligence of horses compared to other pets, like dogs and cats.

I've had both dogs and cats, and they all learned quickly when they're being baited. For example, if I needed to get my dog into another room or my cat into a carrier, I would bait them with food. After doing this about three times, they learned what I was up to and stopped responding to bait (I also want to note that I had cats and dogs at different times in my life, so they never lived together, and it was only one dog or one cat at a time). My aunt has some horses. She'll call the horses in and they won't come. She baits them with food and they come. It works every time. Are horses just not as intelligent as dogs and cats, or is something else involved in the horse's decision to accept the bait?

Julie

[hoopy frood]

You might enjoy the story of clever Hans if you've not already came across it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

[InYourFaceNewYorker]

You might enjoy the story of clever Hans if you've not already came across it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

That's an urban legend. He didn't know how to count. He was picking up on subtle cues as to when to start stomping and when to stop stomping.

[hoopy frood]

You might enjoy the story of clever Hans if you've not already came across it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

That's an urban legend. He didn't know how to count. He was picking up on subtle cues as to when to start stomping and when to stop stomping.

Correct.

[InYourFaceNewYorker]

You might enjoy the story of clever Hans if you've not already came across it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

That's an urban legend. He didn't know how to count. He was picking up on subtle cues as to when to start stomping and when to stop stomping.

Correct.

Why mention it?

[hoopy frood]

For your passing amusement and due to it's relevance, regardless of whether it was a hoax or not, to the question you ask in this thread.

Feel free to ignore it and pardon me for bothering to mention it.

[yyy]

The reward & punishment for the cat/horse respectively might be asymmetrical, thus making that data less valuable in determining intelligence. Putting a cat in a carrier might be a relatively large punishment (in a 'reinforcement learning' type of behavior affecting way), especially if it means going to a vet etc. Maybe a horse would slightly rather be outside but inside with food is the overall more rewarding choice. Whereas maybe food isn't a big enough reward to counteract the confining carrier for a cat. Or any of the animals might have been full or something.

[dreamweaver]

Hi yyy,

I have had horses for most of my life. I train, breed and compete them. If you understand the way they think you can train them to do almost anything. They learn by operant and classical conditioning, by application and removal of "pressure" and not just with food rewards.

For example, if I want my hose to step sideways I place pressure with hand or leg on the horses side. He will then respond with various reactions. He may move into the pressure, he may even try to kick out, but I keep the pressure there until he gives me the response I want (to move away), I then immediately remove the pressure. So he associates the removal of pressure with the response he gave (step away). It may only be a half step but timing is everything. You then ask for more each time until you have as many steps as you want.

A horse will always offer something to pressure and "pressure" can be anything- a situation where you create an "only one door open" choice. It is up to the horseman to accurately read responses and time reward.

Clicker training is used in a similar manner where a desired random behaviour (to the animal but not to us) is rewarded first by a click then food. This is the way dolphins are trained.

Your Aunts horses may not have come to food "cause they weren't hungry or don't like what they are given. Mine always come galloping when I call!

Horses are extremely intelligent but have a herd instinct and a "fight or flight" mentality. You must understand their natures and gain their trust to get the best out of them.

Now, I must go and watch one of my mares win a showjumping class at our local show.

[InYourFaceNewYorker]

Hi yyy,

I have had horses for most of my life. I train, breed and compete them. If you understand the way they think you can train them to do almost anything. They learn by operant and classical conditioning, by application and removal of "pressure" and not just with food rewards.

For example, if I want my hose to step sideways I place pressure with hand or leg on the horses side. He will then respond with various reactions. He may move into the pressure, he may even try to kick out, but I keep the pressure there until he gives me the response I want (to move away), I then immediately remove the pressure. So he associates the removal of pressure with the response he gave (step away). It may only be a half step but timing is everything. You then ask for more each time until you have as many steps as you want.

A horse will always offer something to pressure and "pressure" can be anything- a situation where you create an "only one door open" choice. It is up to the horseman to accurately read responses and time reward.

Clicker training is used in a similar manner where a desired random behaviour (to the animal but not to us) is rewarded first by a click then food. This is the way dolphins are trained.

Your Aunts horses may not have come to food "cause they weren't hungry or don't like what they are given. Mine always come galloping when I call!

Horses are extremely intelligent but have a herd instinct and a "fight or flight" mentality. You must understand their natures and gain their trust to get the best out of them.

Now, I must go and watch one of my mares win a showjumping class at our local show.

What I meant was that when my aunt wants to lock up the horses for the night, they don't come when she calls them because, presumably, they don't want to go in. However, as soon as she baits them with food, they come and it works every time. My point is that my dogs and cats learned very quickly when I was trying to trick them, whereas apparently my aunt's horses haven't learned.

[Millefleur]

I would say horses are pretty intelligent but as dreamweaver said you have to understand how they think to get the response you want - same with all animals. Its the way you keep animals and how you fulfil their potential too, a friend has a Fox Terrier that has been spoilt rotten with no boundaries set and its as if he's consumed by basic instincts and nothing else, its all chase! bite! bark! Fox Terriers are an intelligent and active breed and as a working dog under a knowledgable authoritative owner he'd potentially could have been a valuable asset to a hunter or farmer but instead he's a thug whom I can't resist calling 'stupid'. On the other hand I have a house rabbit who understands and obeys a good handful of commands and 'tricks' among other things. If she hears you open the fridge veg draw she'll bound over and stand on her back legs and hold that position perfectly still begging for food as I taught her to, if my friends dog see's/hears/smells food he'll rip it out of your hand or bite your for it. Dogs may still seem to rank higher overall in the intelligence stakes but you've got to exploit it and channel it.

[yyy]

Kind of off topic, but I'm generally against the concept of pets, unless its saving them from the pound etc. Yes, humans are smart and can manipulate animal behavior with conditioning, but that's just another manifestation of our general monopolistic dominance on the living world. Experiment on these animals here if we want, kill these animals as pests or for food if we want, mold the behavior of these if we want etc. I guess pets are often happy though, just in a backwards non natural human-dominant way. Making them do a trick or something might give them an entertaining activity/goal, aside from the own selfish amusement of humans.

But that horse explanation was interesting. Shows how the brain makes behavior elastic/ adaptable to novel situations as opposed to gene-hard-coded.

[dreamweaver]

What I meant was that when my aunt wants to lock up the horses for the night, they don't come when she calls them because, presumably, they don't want to go in. However, as soon as she baits them with food, they come and it works every time. My point is that my dogs and cats learned very quickly when I was trying to trick them, whereas apparently my aunt's horses haven't learned.

For most domesticated horses, if they are well cared for, their days revolve around routine. They are normally stabled at night and let out during the day. Coming in at night normally involves shelter, a warm clean bed and their nightly feed - something they look forward to. They become habituated to this and will usually be standing at the gates to be let in at the designated time each afternoon. But, if the routine is hit and miss - there is sometimes feed and sometimes not, the coming in/feed time time varies each day - they will be reluctant to turn up. The behaviour (coming in, milling at the gate) has not produced the reward (feed, a brush and a warm bed) each and every time. Consistency is everything. If your Aunt has the horses feeds waiting each night, without fail, the horses will come in each night, without fail. Miss once or twice and they will become mistrustful, and sometimes, quite cranky.

It's not so much "tricking them" as just getting them into a regular routine and they don't preceive it as being tricked. They perceive it as to be expected. The same would occur with dogs or cats if you were to put them in their crates each night with their dinner. They would associate dinner with going into their crates and be quite happy at the prospect. As long as your behaviours are erratic, your animals behaviours will remain erratic.

Another aspect you must take into consideration is body language. Animals are very perceptive to body language. After all, it is the way they communicate with each other. You may not feel you are betraying anything when you try to trick your dogs and cats with food into being locked up but I swear your body language allows them to read your mind. Be mindful of your body language around all animals and never betray your intentions with it. Always "eyes down" is a good start!

[sking1981]

I always thought this.

I've watched gymkanas (sorry if thats spelled wrong) and seen horses run to a wall, get confused because the ride was inexperienced and rather than turn left right or jump, they just crash straight through it... I mean that's pretty dumb isnt it?

"Im not sure what to do, my rider isnt telling me, therefore run into that apparently solid object and hope for the best"

[dreamweaver]

I always thought this.

I've watched gymkanas (sorry if thats spelled wrong) and seen horses run to a wall, get confused because the ride was inexperienced and rather than turn left right or jump, they just crash straight through it... I mean that's pretty dumb isnt it?

"Im not sure what to do, my rider isnt telling me, therefore run into that apparently solid object and hope for the best"

Yes, I once had a horse that had finessed stopping so well that as he stopped he would drop his shoulder, spin away and send me crashing through the fence! Needless to say he moved on to a dressage career.

The horse that crashes through a jump that looks like a brick wall is experienced enough to know that it is not a real brick wall, he knows they fall - smart- but also experienced enough to know that refusing is not an option with happy consequences. A horse is rarely punished for "having a go", but in jumping, run-outs are severely frowned upon and extremely difficult to untrain once started. Most jumpers know this and find the "crashing" option holds better consequences than the "running-out" option. The rider will not be impressed and some negative reinforcement would definitely come down, so he tries to do as he is told, ie: go where he is pointed, which, after all, is a critical basic requirement when it comes to horses. As his options run out, and especially if the rider has put the horse to the fence from a difficult take off postition, the horse will often attempt a last minute awkward effort which can leave everyone and everything on the ground. From a riders point of view we call this event a "miss" where we have miscalculated the distance to the fence or the horse has not responded well to the riders efforts to correct the distance and bring the horse to a reasonable take off spot. Sadly, not all riders are genius's and their horses suffer for it.

But this is the fascinating part of showjumping. The training part which aims to bring horse and rider into one state of being, thus gaining the horses total trust. That even if his rider asks him to do something which could endanger his life, he will do it because it was asked of him. Think of the horses over the centuries ridden into wars under cannon fire... A horse is brave and trusting, but his trust in you has to be earnt. Lose it and it's damn hard to get back. Mankind owes them a lot.

Oh, and it's "gymkhana".

[dreamweaver]

See if you think this horse is intelligent. What an amazing example of rapport.

[sking1981]

I guess s/he's intelligent enough to understand commands and obey them. It looks very impressive but I'm intrigued as to the nature of the "negative" reward you mentioned earlier. What type of punishment would be needed to get a horse to do that? How long would it take to train a horse to that level?

In terms of intelligence though, it's not really in the same context as other things I've seen. Crows in Japan dropping nuts on zebra crossings, they know the cars will crack the nut, and at certain times the traffic will stop flowing so they can retrieve it safely! Now that's intelligent because it's self tought.

And this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 67920.html

Rooks dropping stones in a water vessel in order to raise the water level and retrieve a floating worm.

[Millefleur]

See if you think this horse is intelligent. What an amazing example of rapport.

[dreamweaver]

I guess s/he's intelligent enough to understand commands and obey them. It looks very impressive but I'm intrigued as to the nature of the "negative" reward you mentioned earlier. What type of punishment would be needed to get a horse to do that? How long would it take to train a horse to that level?

In terms of intelligence though, it's not really in the same context as other things I've seen. Crows in Japan dropping nuts on zebra crossings, they know the cars will crack the nut, and at certain times the traffic will stop flowing so they can retrieve it safely! Now that's intelligent because it's self tought.

And this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 67920.html

Rooks dropping stones in a water vessel in order to raise the water level and retrieve a floating worm.

Remember we're talking about animal/human interaction, not simply manifestations of behaviours in the wild which we deem intelligent -I think it's important that we don't anthropomorphise animal behaviour. I have had horses that have figured out how to unlatch gates and another one who would get down on his knees to reach something he wanted on the other side of a fence- something a horse is reluctant to do, since they have no protective knee caps.

As I mentioned earlier, "pressure" is maintained until the horse offers the behaviour we want, and he will always offer something. Horses have no idea of "right and wrong" they simply "do". It is up to us to remove the pressure when he offers what we are looking for. With the horse that is jumping badly, pressure to him would be being asked to repeat the jump until he does it "well". In the case of crashing through fences, it has automatically brought it's own punishment - it must have hurt and he would have thought to himself "gee that didn't work too well". Some riders will also add to this with a dig of spurs or a swipe with a whip, but this is frowned on as it usually just instigates fear of the situation. So we go home and train until we get it right.

The horse in the video- same thing. One step at a time. Application of and removal of "pressure". If he offers something and the pressure remains, he will offer something else. I had a horse who thought pressure came in the form of a white plastic bag. He was terrified of them. In the end we came to a compromise, as desensitising him to them only worked to the point where he would stand and paw the ground when I showed it to him. So I taught him to count with the bag as a cue. I removed the bag when he pawed and shook it again when I wanted him to paw. Now I could refine this bag to a hand or voice signal but the issue was the bag, and now it "means something" to the horse rather than a straight out fear response.

I'm sorry, but I seem to have taken over this thread! Any other animal trainers out there?