Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain

[Richard Dawkins]

I caught a later train than I had intended (household routine disrupted by mortal illness of insanely loved dog -- whoever says you can’t love a dog as much as a person doesn’t know what love is) so I unfortunately missed the welcoming session at the conference. I walked in on the first plenary discussion group. Chaired by Caspar Melville, Editor of New Humanist, the members were Ehsan Jami (Dutch politician of Iranian origin), Hanne Stinson (British Humanist Association), A C Grayling (needs no introduction), Fariborz Pooya (one of the organizers, impressive) and Mina Ahadi (Iranian Ex-Muslim leader from Germany, who spoke in German with an interpreter). The topic was Apostasy laws. and the Freedom to Renounce and Criticise Religion. There was little disagreement among the panel. In the Q & A, the chairman established a pattern for the day, which worked rather well. He took questions in bunches of about five, then allowed the panel to answer any one question, with no obligation to answer more than one. As you might expect, A C Grayling was especially impressive, but none of the panellists could be described as lightweight,

At the end of the session, I was assigned a bodyguard, but it didn't seem necessary while I went out to lunch with Andrew Copson of the British Humanist Association. We had an interesting discussion, and he updated me on our plans for the BHA to distribute, at RDF's expense, DVDs of Growing Up in the Universe to British schools. Things are looking good on that front.

After lunch we began with a lovely stand-up comedy routine from the comedian Nick Doody, telling good jokes at the expense of religion. One that I remember: Religion is like a very big dog, comforting to the owner but terrifying to everybody else. Then another panel discussion, this time on Sharia Law. The chairman, Andrew Copson, adopted the same policy as before, and again it worked well. Again, one member of the panel, Mahin Alipour [Edit: I wrongly said this was Houzan Mahmoud before, sorry], spoke through an interpreter, which held things up a bit. Other members of the panel were Roy Brown (rightly respected elder statesman of the British Humanist movement, now living in Switzerland), Maryam Namazie (Iranian born leader of the British Ex-Muslim movement), Johann Hari (brilliant Independent journalist), and Ibn Warraq (author of Why I am Not a Muslim and one of the great heroes of today's secularist movement). This panel showed flashes of real oratory, especially from Johann Hari (for example, on the question of respect: "I respect you as a person too much to respect your ludicrous beliefs") and from Maryam Namazie, who urged us to put together a lawsuit, in the civil courts, against the Sharia courts who presume to set themselves up in Muslim communities. Theoretically these Sharia courts are supposed to be voluntary: everybody has the option of going to proper British courts, but Sharia courts are available as a voluntary alternative. Speaker after speaker pointed out that this apparent voluntariness is a wicked sham. Women are ordered by their husbands or fathers to go to Sharia courts, not British courts. Many of them don't even realise there is an alternative. Those who do are accused of being "unislamic" if they opt for real British courts.

To be continued after attempt at dog walk

Richard

[-TheCodeCrack-]

Thank you so much for this update.

[james1v]

Will there be a video of the meeting?

[Ilovelucy]

This all sounds brilliant. Will there be any chance of video or audio from the day?

[Sirhenry]

Sounds like an interesting day. I'd never heard of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain before. How well known are they in the UK? I don't remember seeing them mentioned in the media before (although I have heard of some of the people who were at this conference).

[flyingscot]

Being a dog lover I completely understand your household routine's disruption by any illness of a beloved pet.

Thank you for the update, it sounds like many important issues were discussed.

[Lisa Bauer]

Brilliant! Eagerly awaiting the update.

I sympathize strongly with your canine problems. I love dogs, too...ironic because Islam considers dogs unclean!

[Yadsmood]

What's next -- voluntary BNP courts?

Actually, that's an interesting point. Compare liberal treatment of BNP thuggery with liberal treatment of the even greater thuggery of mainstream Muslims.

[Richard Dawkins]

Report, Part 2.

The session on Sharia Law provoked some constructive suggestions from the floor, and ended with Maryam in a rousing reiteration of her call for a lawsuit, in the British courts, against the Sharia courts. It sounds as though this might really happen. I want to look into the possibility that RDFRS might make a contribution to the legal costs, although that might be ruled out by our own statutes with the Charity Commissioners.

The next item was a remake of the film Fitna -- remade by Reza Moradi, who was also acting as the projectionist and technical expert for the conference. I wasn't too clear which bits of the film we saw were the original, and which bits the remake, but it was impressive anyway.

After the tea break was my own talk, about the infamous Harun Yahya. It was pretty much based on my article on this website, called something like Slippery Eels, Venomous Snakes and Harun Yahya, with Keynote slides of the pictures of fossils and modern animals that they are -- mistakenly -- alleged to resemble. I am going to supply Reza with the Keynote slides, so he can drop them into the film he is making of the conference. I spoke for only 15 minutes, in order to leave time for 15 minutes of questions. The question session went well, I think.

The final event of the day was another panel discussion, this time on educational issues, chaired by Keith Porteous Wood, of the National Secular Society, that extremely useful and resourceful body. I was part of this panel, and was joined by Terry Sanderson (Keith's partner at the NSS, and its current President), Joan Smith (wonderfully trenchant Independent columnist) and two eloquent leaders of the Iranian resistance against the Islamists in that country, Hamid Taqvaee and Bahram Soroush. One of these, I think Bahram, defended Islamophobia. The word is used to stifle opposition to islamism, to which it is a legitimate and understandable response. Everybody in the room, it seems, was deeply disturbed by faith schools, and especially the move to institute new Islamic schools.

This last session typified the whole conference in its conspicuous lack of 'herding cats syndrome'. It was as though the menace of Islam is so sinister that the normal differences that divide atheists were put aside. A pair of formal resolutions was put to the vote, and carried nem con:

"The conference calls for the immediate release of all those imprisoned for 'apostasy', abolition of the death penalty, and cancellation of laws that punish the right and freedom to renounce or criticise Islam."

"The conference calls on the British government to bring an end to the use of Sharia law in Britain, which is discriminatory towards women and children in particular, and guarantee unconditional equal citizenship rights for all."

In addition to these two formal resolutions, Keith Porteous Wood called for a vote opposing faith schools. This too was carried nem con

The meeting ended in goodwill, and with a general feeling of solidarity with those Ex-Muslims brave enough to stand up and announce their apostasy.

At the drinks afterwards, I was approached by a young woman, probably about 20, whom I shall not name. She told me she is on the run from her Muslim family who, she believes, want to 'honour' kill her because of her apostasy. She is living in an institution that caters to such women, and is feeling rather lost and lonely because she no longer has the support structure of family and friends. She has had to give up her university place because the university is the first place her father would come looking for her, and she is hoping to find a place in another university.

I suggested that, if she feels threatened, she should go to the police. I should have known better. She had tried that. The law does not allow the police to take any action until the would-be victim has actually been physically molested -- by which time it is likely to be too late. At a loss to know how to help her, I introduced her to a woman who, I felt, might be well placed to help her (again, I shall not name her, in case it helps the girl's father to track her down). I left them together, the girl close to tears (the kindness of strangers often moves me to tears too). Before saying goodbye, I gave her my email address, and encouraged her to write in to this website, assuring her that she would find many friendly people of goodwill here, so I hope she does. If she does, please treat her extra specially well. She is vulnerable, and extremely courageous to have defied her odious father over the matter of religion. She told me how he had the habit of beating his children if they failed to memorise the Koran accurately.

I think Reza plans to release his film of the whole conference, and I'll talk to Josh about getting a link to it on our site. Meanwhile, if you know any Ex-Muslims, or Muslims on the brink of the brave step of apostasy, please offer them support and friendship and encouragement to renounce and denounce that vile and despicable religion.

Richard

[NineBerry]

The next item was a remake of the film Fitna -- remade by Reza Moradi, who was also acting as the projectionist and technical expert for the conference. I wasn't too clear which bits of the film we saw were the original, and which bits the remake, but it was impressive anyway.

The video is unaltered (except for the text at the very beginning and very end, some added text and some removed scenes). The voice-over however was completely replaced. The film "Fitna remade" has been available online for several months.

[passutoba]

Thanks for telling us all of this Professor Dawkins, all very interesting. So sad for the young woman in question...... I was just wondering why Islam is the harshest of the abrahamic religions towards apostasy.....? Is it because of the many references to the fate of 'unbelievers' in the koran? I live in Qatar and I wonder just how many here have serious doubts about their religion, but have absolutely no outlet for these views because of the insular nature of islam and strong family ties and misguided codes of 'honour', unless of course, they frequent this site, which is freely available here! Which reminds me...I posted elsewhere, but is this site accessible in Saudi Arabia? Any ideas Professor?

[james1v]

The law is an ass if the police do not take her fears seriously! It makes my blood boil!

[Lisa Bauer]

Meanwhile, if you know any Ex-Muslims, or Muslims on the brink of the brave step of apostasy, please offer them support and friendship and encouragement to renounce and denounce that vile and despicable religion.

"Vile indeed are the behests of your faith, if you are believers!" (Qur'an 2:93)

Admittedly, that quote is torn horribly out of context, but it jumped to mind when reading those words.

That is a very moving story about the brave young woman; I hope she manages to find a way out and survives this awful circumstances. I feel like I've got off very, very lightly in comparison -- I won't say alhamdulillah (praise be to Allah), which is what I instinctively wanted to say, because it is precisely because of Allah that people like her are tormented, oppressed, and even killed. I strongly suspect the reason I have any sympathy at all for Islam or any other religion is precisely because they haven't been forced on me in that manner.

Hope to see the video of the event soon, and that the Council encourages more to stand up and speak out.

[Lisa Bauer]

By the way, those shocking images in the Fitna Remade video from 8:22 to 8:32 are actually of ritualized bloodletting during the Shi'ite holy day of 'Ashoura, when people cut themselves (and their children), flagellate themselves, and so on in commemoration of the bloody death in battle of Imam Husayn. Cutting one's forehead, or one's child's forehead, is especially common because one gets a lot of blood from a small cut.

(I actually possess some of those Qur'an recitations used in the video, sadly...I can testify that, yes, they're in the Qur'an and translated correctly.)

[Matt H.]

Thanks for that Richard, and I hope the girl you met finds her way here. There are many Muslim apostates here, like Layla. I'm sure they'll be of immense help to her.

And I also hope your dog is ok.

[elroywillis]

By the way, those shocking images in the Fitna Remade video from 8:22 to 8:32 are actually of ritualized bloodletting during the Shi'ite holy day of 'Ashoura, when people cut themselves (and their children), flagellate themselves, and so on in commemoration of the bloody death in battle of Imam Husayn. Cutting one's forehead, or one's child's forehead, is especially common because one gets a lot of blood from a small cut.

(I actually possess some of those Qur'an recitations used in the video, sadly...I can testify that, yes, they're in the Qur'an and translated correctly.)

Is it only the ultra-orthodox Muslims who follow such practices, or is it common among most Muslims? What are the demographics of the Muslims who actually participate in such rituals?

[NineBerry]

Is it only the ultra-orthodox Muslims who follow such practices, or is it common among most Muslims? What are the demographics of the Muslims who actually participate in such rituals?

It's only Shiites, that "celebrate" Ashura. There's a large spectrum of how people can participate: From just mourning to wailing loudly, beating their chests symbolically to actually hurting themselves with blades.

[elroywillis]

The video is unaltered (except for the text at the very beginning and very end, some added text and some removed scenes). The voice-over however was completely replaced. The film "Fitna remade" has been available online for several months.

Pretty scary stuff, indeed... I wonder how it can be possible to take action against the radical Islamists without making them even more angry and violent in the process...

[AdrianB]

The Council of Ex-Muslims has an excellent website:

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/

I have posted, and learn a great deal from the forum there.

Incidentally, one of the main contributors there BerberElla, has posted the most inspiring deconversion stories I have ever read. She was a frequent poster here once, and I urge you all to read her story here:

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index ... ,40.0.html

[elroywillis]

Is it only the ultra-orthodox Muslims who follow such practices, or is it common among most Muslims? What are the demographics of the Muslims who actually participate in such rituals?

It's only Shiites, that "celebrate" Ashura. There's a large spectrum of how people can participate: From just mourning to wailing loudly, beating their chests symbolically to actually hurting themselves with blades.

I Googled up the following, which I found interesting...

http://www.iranian.com/main/blog/david-et/ashura-islam-gone-catholic

Ashura: Islam gone catholic!
The following is part of an article by Navid Kermani , a writer and commentator on Iranian and Islamic affairs in Germany, on the ancient roots of the tale of Hussein’s martyrdom:

The Safavids expanded the rituals of mourning for Hussein – not least for reasons of power politics. As the majority of the Iranian population at that time were Sunnis, the Safavids aimed to bind them more closely to the Shi’a and to shore up hatred against the Sunnis. In order to ensure the legitimacy of the Iranian-Shi’ite dynasty, it was important that Sunni Islam should be identified with the Arabs. The cult of suffering surrounding Hussein offered the best means of accomplishing this – as the passion and martyrdom of heroes is the outstanding theme of Iranian national tradition.

[Lisa Bauer]

Ashura: Islam gone catholic!

It IS interesting how much Shi'a Islam (technically Ithna 'Ashari, "Twelver" Shi'a Islam; there are other forms of Shi'ism like the Isma'ilis) resembles Roman Catholicism. There is the central importance placed on suffering, for example, expressed through the "celebrations" of self-flagellation and mataam (rhythmic beating of the chest) on 'Ashura. At night on the first ten days of the Islamic month of Muharram, the first in the calendar, Shi'ites will gather at mosques and special halls to listen to a preacher discourse at emotional lengths about the sufferings of the Imam Husayn, grandson of Muhammad, and his family at Karbala' in Iraq, and everybody starts weeping copiously and engaging in mataam. In Iran they even have "passion plays" (ta'ziyehs) depicting these events -- you may recall passion plays in Catholic countries. As a result of the central importance of Imam Husayn's doomed stand against the "tyrant" Yazid, "martyrdom" is a very central aspect of Shi'ism, even more so than in Sunni Islam. The Ayatollah Khomeini drew heavily on this "martyrdom" stuff during the war with Iraq; teenage boys used in waves of suicide attacks were told they would become martyrs and were supposedly given plastic gold keys to paradise. A more perfect example of religion as child abuse could hardly be conceived!

There is an enormous importance placed on holy figures such as the imams or members of their families, similar to the honor given to saints in Catholicism, and visits to their shrines are very important, also similar to Catholicism. Mashhad, in northeastern Iran, burial place (mashhad in Arabic) of the eighth Shi'ite imam Ali ar-Riza, gets 20 million pilgrims and visitors a year, and one of the most common male names in Iran is Reza (after him). Najaf, Karbala' (in Iraq) and Qum (Iran) are all huge Shi'ite pilgrimige sites -- which is why they've been blown up so much by Sunni militants.

Not least, there is also a sizeable Shi'a religious hierarchy, with assorted levels of mullahs, hujjat-ul-Islams, ayatollahs, and grand ayatollahs, the latter called marja-e taqlid ("source of emulation"), because each Shi'a is supposed to follow the dictates of one or another of them in matters of Islamic law. For centuries they've lived off pious endowments and contributions (less kindly, by being parasites feeding on people's piety), and some amassed great wealth and power even before the Iranian revolution. This hierarchy just doesn't exist in the same way in Sunni Islam -- sure, there are sheikhs and mullahs, but not to the same extent.

While Sunni and Shi'a Islam are both "vile and despicable," they aren't vile and despicable in exactly the same ways, though they do share quite a lot of disgusting traits (killing apostates, general treatment of women and the like). Wahhabi Saudis loathe the Shi'ites and vice versa. (I should note I wasn't a Shi'ite, though I found their history and traditions interesting.)

[elroywillis]

There is an enormous importance placed on holy figures such as the imams or members of their families, similar to the honor given to saints in Catholicism, and visits to their shrines are very important, also similar to Catholicism. Mashhad, in northwestern Iran, burial place (mashhad in Arabic) of the eighth Shi'ite imam Ali ar-Riza, gets 20 million pilgrims and visitors a year, and one of the most common male names in Iran is Reza (after him). Najaf, Karbala' (in Iraq) and Qum (Iran) are all huge Shi'ite pilgrimige sites -- which is why they've been blown up so much by Sunni militants.

How much of that do you think is based on tourism dollars or pilgrimage dollars? Requiring or encouraging people to visit those sites is sure to make a bunch of money for the people and locations involved...

[Lisa Bauer]

How much of that do you think is based on tourism dollars or pilgrimage dollars? Requiring or encouraging people to visit those sites is sure to make a bunch of money for the people and locations involved...

Oh, no sh*t! Everywhere you turn in Shi'ite countries there's ANOTHER shrine. There must be at least a dozen or so major ones that attract a million or more pilgrims every year, and then countless smaller ones. Even small towns often have a shrine to some sayyid (descendant of Muhammad) or somebody. There are tombs of Sufi saints and other "holy" people that are oft-visited by pilgrims in Sunni countries as well, but nothing like among the Shi'ites. (Well, except for the hajj in Mecca and Muhammad's tomb in Medina.) SOMEBODY is profiting from all this, no doubt about it, just like Lourdes or Medjugorje or Bethlehem or Jerusalem or Rome or wherever profits from their pilgrims.

I was just wondering why Islam is the harshest of the abrahamic religions towards apostasy.....? Is it because of the many references to the fate of 'unbelievers' in the koran?

Well, the Bible is fairly harsh in some sections, though it doesn't go on about the tortures awaiting unbelievers in hellfire on every other page the way the Qur'an does. In any case, the thinking is that Islam is a "nation" (ummah) made up of all Muslims and apostasy (riddah) is, in this view, just like treason. I have actually read/heard defenses of the "death for apostasy" rule that run along exactly those lines: "countries execute traitors, right?" Well, first, a lot of them don't anymore, and second, not everybody will accept your characterization of Islam as a "nation" that must punish "traitors" severely.

If you think of religion as something (a meme or memeplex) on which forces of natural selection can operate, it might make sense why a religion might adopt such a belief. If a religion develops this belief, it is more likely to be successful in the meme pool because there will be fewer "defectors." I mean, Islam has 1400 years of massive success in the meme pool to contend with, and Christianity 2,000, so no doubt they have developed many and varied ways to stave off threats to their existence!

[AdrianT]

I was delighted to have been able to show solidarity with these brave people. It was a very moving experience. I was extremely impressed with the way Johann Hari described the abuse of women, disgracefully sanctioned by the German justice system. I was also able to speak to Ehsan Jami about the Dutch situation - it seems, despite all the talk from the Dutch government, there are dozens of mosques and extremist imams who are carrying on in their own sweet way.

I take my hat off to Maryam; it's thanks to remarkable people like her that the oppressed will not be forgotten. I would like to add that the plight of gay people in Islamic countries - particularly those in iraq, where the gay people are being exterminated by Shia death squads needs a little more emphasis, if possible. (peter tatchell has worked tirelessly to expose this, see this video http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uB7TcPGXlHY - though be warned it is very disturbing).

It was good to meet a couple of people from the forum also - ('homoeconomicus').

[NineBerry]

I was extremely impressed with the way Johann Hari described the abuse of women, disgracefully sanctioned by the German justice system.

What was that? Not that old canard about the divorce case in which a judge cited the unholy koran?

This is what actually happened:

The question before the court was that of a divorce of a marriage that had been contracted in a different country. According to German law, in such a case the court has to apply the law of the country, where the marriage had been contracted, unless it contravenes principles of the German constitution.

The (female) judge declined a divorce, because the Moroccan law recognizes the husband's "right to chasten his wife" and decided the wife would have to wait for a year (living separate from the husband) before an "automatic divorce" would happen. The decision of the judge was revoked within a few weeks and the divorce was accepted by another judge.

I am aware, that this incident was not reported properly in foreign media.